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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:50 am 
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boethius wrote:
Let's talk about atheism and morality.

Some claim atheists cannot derive morality from their atheism. I disagree, atheists have developed many moral systems, which are wildly inconsistent amongst themselves. Here are just some of them:

1. Ayn Rand's free-market, libertarian egotism.
2. The collectivist, social welfare leftism of secular Western Europeans.
3. State Communism.
4. Social Darwinism.
5. Eugenics (where Social Darwinism lets the weak die off, Eugenics actively culls the weak from the gene pool through termination or sterilization or both).


Of course, not all of these moral systems can be simultaneously correct.

Which one is the "right" atheist morality, or can atheists have multiple moralities?

If multiple moral systems can be logically inferred from observation of the world and reason, and none is more correct than another, then where does an atheist gain the right to criticize the moral system of anyone else--atheist or theist?

So you're really saying that, in light of the vast differences in religion-based morality, nobody has any right to criticize the moral system of anyone else.
Time to quit trying to bring people to Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:52 am 
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Quasigriz wrote:
Plan on adding "Social Contract" to that list, or does that fall under one of those already listed?

Make that #6.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:53 am 
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boethius wrote:
Let's talk about atheism and morality.

Some claim atheists cannot derive morality from their atheism. I disagree, atheists have developed many moral systems, which are wildly inconsistent amongst themselves. Here are just some of them:


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:17 pm 
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drtrech wrote:
The game will end when a deity manifests in a way powerful enough to convince the theists that they're actually right.

Don't you mean "when a deity manifests in a way powerful enough to convinve the atheists that the theists are right"...
...cuz otherwise I'm confused about how this ends the game...

You seem to be setting up a net on the atheists end of the pitch for the theists to score on.

In which case you still need to define how the atheists can win the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:22 pm 
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DrYouth wrote:
In which case you still need to define how the atheists can win the game.

The win, for me, is not spending my life worrying about if it is/isn't true. I'm not there, yet... but it's taking less of time then it was 10 years ago, which was less time then it was 20 years ago. (And I'm not posting in religious threads nearly as much as I did when I first joined these forums.... to participate in a religious thread.)

I still get accused of having Catholic guilt from time to time... I'm not proud of it, but brainwashing at a very early age is pretty effing powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:23 pm 
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DrYouth wrote:
drtrech wrote:
The game will end when a deity manifests in a way powerful enough to convince the theists that they're actually right.

Don't you mean "when a deity manifests in a way powerful enough to convinve the atheists that the theists are right"...
...cuz otherwise I'm confused about how this ends the game...

You seem to be setting up a net on the atheists end of the pitch for the theists to score on.

In which case you still need to define how the atheists can win the game.
We win until they come up with a testable proof for god that confirms god's existence. Unfortunately there isn't a scorekeeper in this game to record that; if there was, the religionists would call it god.

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Last edited by RAnthony on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:25 pm 
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nope. I said it right.

When the believers truly believe, they'll stop being so damned insecure in their beliefs that they'll be able to enjoy their faith and quit trying to validate their beliefs with science (in which they believe only when it validates their beliefs).

They lack the faith to believe on faith alone.

So they need a deity to appear to give them a REAL convincing.

The atheists likely wouldn't believe even then because the evidence would be seen as inconclusive.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:27 pm 
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RAnthony wrote:
We win until they come up with a testable proof for god that confirms god's existence. Unfortunately there isn't a scorekeeper in this game to record that; if there was, the religionists would call it god.


What's the prize you receive for "winning"?

Let's remember, you started this thread, not drtrech's "insecure" theists.

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"Yuck factor aside (along with the potential for the animal to harm the human), if the animal isn't being harmed I'm not sure why bestiality should be a felony." -- drtrech

"Boethius was the only user here to successfully piss me off IRL, and you'll notice it's been crickets from him for a while. I'm not saying he's dead now . . . but . . . :twisted:" -- DBTrek

"How about you just suck on a cyanide lollipop and spare us your fucking hyperbole you whining little nancy?" -- Cid

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:29 pm 
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drtrech wrote:
nope. I said it right.

When the believers truly believe, they'll stop being so damned insecure in their beliefs that they'll be able to enjoy their faith and quit trying to validate their beliefs with science (in which they believe only when it validates their beliefs).

They lack the faith to believe on faith alone.

So they need a deity to appear to give them a REAL convincing.

The atheists likely wouldn't believe even then because the evidence would be seen as inconclusive.


So you are criticizing people for allegedly not having enough of the thing (faith) you think that a person should, ideally, have none of? :?

It's like Groucho Marx's complaint that the "food here is terrible and the portions are too small."

"Faith is irrational and these people don't have enough of it."

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"Yuck factor aside (along with the potential for the animal to harm the human), if the animal isn't being harmed I'm not sure why bestiality should be a felony." -- drtrech

"Boethius was the only user here to successfully piss me off IRL, and you'll notice it's been crickets from him for a while. I'm not saying he's dead now . . . but . . . :twisted:" -- DBTrek

"How about you just suck on a cyanide lollipop and spare us your fucking hyperbole you whining little nancy?" -- Cid

"If Dan had a lick of sense he'd have booted your pompous ass ages ago." - RAnthony


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:36 pm 
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boethius wrote:
drtrech wrote:
nope. I said it right.

When the believers truly believe, they'll stop being so damned insecure in their beliefs that they'll be able to enjoy their faith and quit trying to validate their beliefs with science (in which they believe only when it validates their beliefs).

They lack the faith to believe on faith alone.

So they need a deity to appear to give them a REAL convincing.

The atheists likely wouldn't believe even then because the evidence would be seen as inconclusive.


So you are criticizing people for allegedly not having enough of the thing (faith) you think that a person should, ideally, have none of? :?

It's like Groucho Marx's complaint that the "food here is terrible and the portions are too small."

"Faith is irrational and these people don't have enough of it."

If you're going to build your life around something, you'd better have enough of it to sustain you.

Theists build their lives around faith, but they keep trying to find validation for their faith. Which actually defeats what faith is all about.

It's not that I think people should build their lives around faith, or have more faith. I just think that people need to have an adequate supply and quality of whatever they choose as their foundation.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Not sure why having evidence or logic in support of faith is a bad thing. Finding evidence in support of faith shouldn't reduce one's faith, it should enhance it.

Most scientists have faith that every phenomenon in the physical universe has a material explanation. You can't prove that deductively...it is a basic postulate that all scientists assume.

Does that faith get diminished or increased each time science explains another previously unexplained phenomenon? I would say, increased.

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"Yuck factor aside (along with the potential for the animal to harm the human), if the animal isn't being harmed I'm not sure why bestiality should be a felony." -- drtrech

"Boethius was the only user here to successfully piss me off IRL, and you'll notice it's been crickets from him for a while. I'm not saying he's dead now . . . but . . . :twisted:" -- DBTrek

"How about you just suck on a cyanide lollipop and spare us your fucking hyperbole you whining little nancy?" -- Cid

"If Dan had a lick of sense he'd have booted your pompous ass ages ago." - RAnthony


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:16 pm 
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boethius wrote:
Not sure why having evidence or logic in support of faith is a bad thing. Finding evidence in support of faith shouldn't reduce one's faith, it should enhance it.

Most scientists have faith that every phenomenon in the physical universe has a material explanation. You can't prove that deductively...it is a basic postulate that all scientists assume.

Does that faith get diminished or increased each time science explains another previously unexplained phenomenon? I would say, increased.

The faith of a scientist is different from religious faith.

The scientist has confidence in the laws of the universe, in the scientific process, and the ability of the human mind to work through problems. The confidence is entirely based on the material world.

The theist, on the other hand has faith--the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is its own substance and its own evidence. When you seek to validate faith through material means, you dilute what faith is about.

If there's not room for doubt, then there's not room for faith.

So when you talk about evidence supporting your faith, then faith is no longer its own evidence.

If you guys would just smile and say "it's all on faith," the atheists would have little to say. Instead, you try to convince folks that it's all really really scientific, and we both know better.

With enough faith, the evidence or lack of it would be irrelevant.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:16 pm 
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boethius wrote:
Not sure why having evidence or logic in support of faith is a bad thing.

Then it's no longer faith, it's fact. My priest used to explain it like this, "If god wanted you to have proof, he'd give it to you. God wants you to have faith."

There's not one bit of evidence to date that supports a deity must exist. Pretending there is just shows a crack in the underlying faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:29 pm 
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drtrech wrote:
The faith of a scientist is different from religious faith.

The scientist has confidence in the laws of the universe, in the scientific process, and the ability of the human mind to work through problems. The confidence is entirely based on the material world.

No, that confidence is based on an assumption--unprovable--that everything within the material world is internally consistent and understandable by human reasoning.

That is an assumption. The universe could be irrational, could be random. The scientist assumes it is not. When faced with new phenomenon, the scientist assumes it must have a material cause and looks for that material cause BEFORE he has any direct evidence of a material cause.

Before the scientist finds the material cause for phenomenon X, he is taking on faith that such a material cause exists.

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"Yuck factor aside (along with the potential for the animal to harm the human), if the animal isn't being harmed I'm not sure why bestiality should be a felony." -- drtrech

"Boethius was the only user here to successfully piss me off IRL, and you'll notice it's been crickets from him for a while. I'm not saying he's dead now . . . but . . . :twisted:" -- DBTrek

"How about you just suck on a cyanide lollipop and spare us your fucking hyperbole you whining little nancy?" -- Cid

"If Dan had a lick of sense he'd have booted your pompous ass ages ago." - RAnthony


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 Post subject: Re: Atheism is not a belief system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:33 pm 
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boethius wrote:
drtrech wrote:
The faith of a scientist is different from religious faith.

The scientist has confidence in the laws of the universe, in the scientific process, and the ability of the human mind to work through problems. The confidence is entirely based on the material world.

No, that confidence is based on an assumption--unprovable--that everything within the material world is internally consistent and understandable by human reasoning.

That is an assumption. The universe could be irrational, could be random. The scientist assumes it is not. When faced with new phenomenon, the scientist assumes it must have a material cause and looks for that material cause BEFORE he has any direct evidence of a material cause.

Before the scientist finds the material cause for phenomenon X, he is taking on faith that such a material cause exists.

This is what you're going to take issue with?

You're going to quibble over how I define the faith of a scientist, just so you don't have to deal with your own crisis of faith?

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