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 Post subject: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Satrap
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Dan:

Just finished listening to your show and wanted to offer some ideas.

1) Please, please do not get discouraged, thinking that you are not having an effect. What you cannot see is the influence you have on your listeners. It is always positive, and it always has an impact, even if you put out a show thinking that you are repeating yourself. There are active hearts and minds in our country who cannot wait to listen to all of your shows. You may not see us or know about us, but we are there and we think your programs are great.

2) Stop being so self-conscious about not being a "leader." The very fact that you care, and care deeply enough to do what you are doing, make you a leader, even if you do not think of yourself as one in the traditional sense. You know yourself. Now have enough self-confidence to know that you are doing what you do best, and stick with it. Not everyone is a MLK, JFK, RR, or LBJ. But not everyone needs to be.

3) Reconsider the "no convention" idea. Twitter feeds and Skype can only go so far. There are people in your own listenership who could be leaders but, like you, feel powerless to change things. We don't feel connected to a movement, but we feel an urge to change things. But nothing will happen without organization. You need some kind of gathering to get off the ground, to get ideas. People would come if you get serious. Maybe test the waters with a local meeting, if you want. Do a podcast about it and ask for special donations. Ask people to help run it, so it doesn't necessarily have to be you in the driver's seat. Develop an agenda of topics of most concern to you, and invite some folks who live within reasonable driving distance who are involved in local or national politics. Invite some media figures. What is the worst thing that can happen?

4) Don't throw in the towel. We care. We talk about you and your shows.

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:14 pm 
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I cant remember the last time I agreed 100% with something someone else said in a public forum... aside from just now that is.

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:28 pm 
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I have been away from this board for a long time now. I just listened to the latest podcast. What is the first step? Who should I tweet? What should I say?

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Dude . . .

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. . . You Eeyore'd us.

In honor of Episode Eeyore, I tribute one rendition of Black Dog.


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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:11 pm 
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So, Dan. How is that coaching going? Every dad who gets stuck with that job ends up wondering "What the hell did I sign up for?" and "How do I get out of it again?" :lol:

I didn't offer suggestions about how to actually change your local precinct because I wanted you to be discouraged (http://www.dancarlin.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30831&p=401468#p401468) or based on opinion alone, but because I've worked at the state level in the LP myself, and it's actually amazing how few people it takes to run a party. It does take real work, but it's not an impossible proposition, and can be done with a reliable core group of dedicated people.

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:55 pm 
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I know what the solution is and I've already said it a few times on this board.

Right now the VERY FIRST goal we need to accomplish is to change the voting system so that there is no vote splitting and we can vote our conscience and have more competitive elections. Competitive elections is essential to holding the politicians in office accountable and yet I never hear anyone with a voice talking about it. Political personalities such as Cenk Uygur of the Young Turks and Dylan Ratigan are trying to get an amendment passed to get campaign finance reform. This is incredibly unrealistic and jumping right to it is a waste of time and resources. Getting an amendment passed is nearly impossible.

I already made a more detailed post about how to accomplish this HERE.

Another thing we need to do is implement an official state run message board in which candidates for office can have point-by-point debates throughout the campaign. In order to run for office, a potential candidate must first make at least one post introducing himself and explain why he/she is running. This can be good avenue for candidates to get their message out and calling out their opponent's BS. If their opponents do not use this board beyond their first introductory post and do not respond to attacks, they'll just get hammered and look weak.


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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:53 am 
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Must be an election year. This sounded like a continuation of the Bob Barr episode from 2008.

Dan, for my part, I don't expect you to be a leader in this. You have made it very clear that you don't want to be and that is fine. However, when you say stuff like:

Dan wrote:
"I'm not a do'er, it's not in my nature"


I have to laugh and call Bullshit on you. You've been running this CS podcast for years, that's "doing" more than anyone on this board. Is it leading? No, but you are one of the very few consistent voices out there point back at the system and saying that it needs to change.

Not a do'er? Pfffft :roll:

I had to admit I smiled a bit when I heard your reaction to the interviews. I felt like saying "Well Duh" but this has been a personal contention of mine with regards to third parties in their horrible attempts at leadership decisions. (See - your comments in the '08 Bob Barr episode)

You spoke about getting leaders/groups together under one "umbrella" in attempts to get them talking and something done, but I also think it takes something else that none of these groups want. Compromise. As you've seen on these boards, hardly a day goes by where you don't have discussions and arguments about something with folks taking a stance against all other suggestions. Now times that by thousands, if not millions when you try and get people of the US to come together to fix a problem as big as corruption. You will have millions of ideas from various groups, thousands of supporters for each group and [I bet] none of them want to work together and compromise on bringing a solid plan forward to fix things. It will be a "If you're not with us, your with them" type mentality. How do you fix something like that and bring folks together? Do you do what they say? Do you disavow them? That's where you need leader(s), to come in and make the hard decisions.


I also applauded your comment:


Dan wrote:
Remember folks, these people are all going to have political beliefs that might not mesh with yours. You gotta drop that. We have to unite around the most important cause which is: We have a corrupt government that needs to change. How do you fix that?


This needs to be repeated more often. Hell it needs to be a mantra in all this. Drop the partisan BS and start working with each other to come to and agreed solution.

All in all, good show. I kind of knew this kind of episode was coming. You've been awful quiet lately and that usually is an indications of, as DBTrek dubbed, and Eeyore show on the horizon.

Chin up mate, you are doing some great work out there and I for one appreciate it. :hugs:

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:06 am 
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Dont be a leader. Dont get sad or depressed.

Drop CC and focus on HH. History is more fun. And informs politics better in many ways than any current political commentary can.

You keep saying how you are repeating yourself. That is because you are repeating yourself. You cant help it. It goes with the territory. There is really only so many ways to say these things.

Thats my two pennies.

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:30 am 
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Alright, so I'm a newbie as it comes to this forum (although I think I'd like to be around here more often given the proper time) so hello :wave: to everyone and sorry if I'm not aware of the local climate. I'd like to just give a little description of who I am and what has brought me here today. Perhaps it will be for the feedback, perhaps it could help Dan in his expressed conundrum, or most likely it will just be cathartic in process. Here it is.

I'm what people, likely those within the organization most, refer to as a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer (RPCV). I've just finished two years in Africa living in a small, remote village, without running water, teaching rural communities a myriad of development-minded notions on how to join Western civilization. I did this, unlike most, *after* having joined the working world, grown older -perhaps more mature-, and I did so on the premise that doing the right thing and helping people would make a relevant difference. The beauty of Peace Corps is that we're not really bound by any particular ideal or methodology and therefore don't necessarily need to teach a style of development that suits the modern world, and often I didn't. I thought this would be a distinct advantage. I spoke a lot about the dangers of becoming like America, of what actually makes Africans poor and what doesn't. Of course not many listened. As result I felt that the connection between people, regardless of their differences, was reflected in the apathy and blind ignorance that I experienced in Africa and that also reminded me so much of my experiences in America. That's all just introduction, I suppose.

I made a little pact with myself that when I returned to America that I would somehow get involved in politics to help maintain the upward shift of the progressive movement alongside Obama's administration. I was involved in the campaign in 2008 and felt overwhelmingly better about politics the moment he was elected and yet I knew that the next race would be important as well. However, 4 years later I'm less impressed with his record (though definitely not enough to sway me toward the alternative) and even more concerned about the simple mindedness of the American mob and singular greed of the 1%, including the general supporters that ache to be a part of that greed out of blissful selfishness.

I'm currently taking some time in Turkey of all places (a relative works here) to figure out what is next in my own life. As confirmed by a Turkish coffee cup fortune reading (if one can take that amusement seriously), I have considered my path to be two-fold. The first option, in my mind, is to return to America and become involved in politics in a way that will try to add to a critical mass and affect change among Americans. A daunting prospect, it is one that I am indeed intimidated by. My frustrations over how backward America seems to be turning is what drives this desire nonetheless.

The second is to go about living a peaceful life, likely elsewhere in the world, and to turn my back on America. In essence I would become an ex-patriot in more ways than the usual choice to live abroad, something that flies in direct opposition to my lifelong and strong beliefs in the founding values of American democracy. Why do this? For my sanity, the safety of my family (should I choose to have one), and a partial acknowledgement that Rome is actually beginning to fall. I recognize that most Americans cannot see what is rather obvious from the outside and less so from the inside, from daily life and an attachment to homelands. Absolutely America will largely survive. I'm not saying it won't; what I'm saying is that I don't want to be part of what it is becoming any more than I would want to have been a part of British colonialism.

This scenario represents a sort of get busy living or get busy dying kind of choice. One definitely seems more appropriate than the other, though there are numerous points yea and nay for either.

So here I am reconnecting to civilization, getting reacquainted with my old podcasts and news sources when what do I hear? That Dan Carlin, one of my most favorite political commentators, is having similar thoughts! There are sources of political inspiration in the modern world view but none quite so revolutionary and thoughtful as Dan. None so outside the box (thanks Al Gore!), so big a picture in consideration. And he's making a plea for us to do something! I say bring on the call to action, by the way.

Again the dichotomy: First, yes! Let's do something together! Second, why is Dan ready to bow out? Are things so bad that HE is giving up and therefore so should I? Damn it.

I feel a bit like Achilles at the moment he is speaking to his mother about whether to go to war before leaving for Troy, if I may take the movie as a bad reference to history and myth. She tells him that if he stays, he will have a wife and children and live a beautiful and wonderful life full of happiness. OR, he can go to war for the King he hates and attain ultimate glory in the eyes of man by becoming a glorious player in a turning point for human history. He of course chooses glory and death. This too is what Joseph Campbell referred to as the hero's sacrifice. Here are some quotes I have been thinking about that embody this idea of the sacrifice we make for the betterment of man (or empire):

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." --Gandhi (kind of)
"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter."--MLKJ
"What man is a man who does not make the world better?"--Balien of Ibelin (Kingdom of Heaven)

Just some of my thoughts. Perhaps something can come out of them. Thanks.

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Political Compass
"What should a free man do?" --Spartan Queen (300)
"Be the change you wish to see in the world." --Gandhi (kind of)
"What man is a man who does not make the world better?"--Balien of Ibelin (Kingdom of Heaven)
"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter."--MLKJ
"Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." --George Bernard Shaw


Last edited by samadams on Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:53 am 
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Nomarch
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de officiis wrote:
Dan:

3) Reconsider the "no convention" idea. Twitter feeds and Skype can only go so far. There are people in your own listenership who could be leaders but, like you, feel powerless to change things. We don't feel connected to a movement, but we feel an urge to change things. But nothing will happen without organization. You need some kind of gathering to get off the ground, to get ideas. People would come if you get serious. Maybe test the waters with a local meeting, if you want. Do a podcast about it and ask for special donations. Ask people to help run it, so it doesn't necessarily have to be you in the driver's seat. Develop an agenda of topics of most concern to you, and invite some folks who live within reasonable driving distance who are involved in local or national politics. Invite some media figures. What is the worst thing that can happen?


Absolutely!

I been thinking about this show for over an hour now because something about Dans plan doesn't quite feel right. Not to discourage this summit of Dans, its always good to get smart people together.

I'm still concerned that Dan hasn't understood power. Dan, Taibi, Napoletano et.al. have no power.

Public opinion is not power, being right is not power, knowing what to do is not power... power is power and in a democracy votes = power
Getting organised it the first step to obtaining that power.
You know what to do, now go get the power to do it.

Look I think by now most people agree what the problem is and want to fix it. There's no point in rehashing the issue over and over and over again - which I fear will be the only outcome of Dans proposed gettogether.

Dan says he wants to leverage the audiences - but in order to do what? Getting together can at best only be a first step - maybe a great step.
But it has to be followed by action. Untill you actually put something down on paper in the form of a contract (be it forming a party/NGO, a legislative proposal or whatever) nothing has actually been done.

I liked the show, I love that Dan is fed up and want to do something. I was just disappointed with the ending. I kept hoping for something more along the lines of; "Therefore I Dan Carlin officially declare my candidacy for City Counsil"

Show 229 is all about feeling powerless, but no wonder. Of course you're powerless - you don't seek the power.
It kinda seems like the problem is the ones who have the power don't know what they want to do with it except get more power. Those that want to do something don't want the power.

The one practical solution Dan has suggested in my recent memory is the bit about legislators having to recuse themselves on subjects they have taken money from. (something I completely disagree with btw)
My question is; Are you serious about this Dan?

It can be done, if you really think that should be done it can be done... all you have to do is make it law. But that requires checking to see how it can be done constitutionally (need a lawyer for that), writing the proposed bill (also need a lawyer), probably best done as citizen referendum so you need to know what is required to get this on the ballot and decide at what level of government to start (city, state, Fed?). Can't do it all by your lonesome so you need to get organised.
Only after having done all that do you need to worry about selling it. It's a hell of alot easier to get people to rally aroud a loosy-goosy corruption is the problem rant, but it's passing a bill into law thats gonna change the world.

I think there's something very true about the notion of a generation without leaders - I also think it's more then that. I think we are power-scared. We're so afraid of using power that we always wind up talking about public opinion, getting people to voluntarily do the right thing, shaming people into doing right, education will make everything better... cop-outs is what that is.
Shining a light on corruption in the hopes that it will shame people into not being corrupt is a weak-souce solution. But using power to prevent corruption is somehow 'unethical' in our high-minded world view.
We don't want to lead because leading inevitably involves the use of power. It inevitably means someone must be made to do something they don't want to do - and that's just wrong :oops: .

Decision are made by those who show up!

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:00 am 
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Kolokol888 wrote:
Public opinion is not power, being right is not power, knowing what to do is not power... power is power and in a democracy votes = power
Getting organised it the first step to obtaining that power.
You know what to do, now go get the power to do it.


Just want to throw this wrench in there: in a capitalist democracy money is also power. And public opinion is what brings about the votes. Followed by money (presumably but not definitively) is what changes public opinion. True, I think getting people to rally and vote is exactly what needs to be done. The question is will this be enough to get people to vote for the change that is needed.

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...in my humble opinion, as all my statements should be considered.
Political Compass
"What should a free man do?" --Spartan Queen (300)
"Be the change you wish to see in the world." --Gandhi (kind of)
"What man is a man who does not make the world better?"--Balien of Ibelin (Kingdom of Heaven)
"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter."--MLKJ
"Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." --George Bernard Shaw


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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:48 am 
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My under-7 soccer team is 0-4. No hope of any wins soon. We did score a goal last game through. It was a beauty .... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:09 am 
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samadams wrote:
Kolokol888 wrote:
Public opinion is not power, being right is not power, knowing what to do is not power... power is power and in a democracy votes = power
Getting organised it the first step to obtaining that power.
You know what to do, now go get the power to do it.


Just want to throw this wrench in there: in a capitalist democracy money is also power. And public opinion is what brings about the votes. Followed by money (presumably but not definitively) is what changes public opinion. True, I think getting people to rally and vote is exactly what needs to be done.


Money is one way of obtaining votes, but the power still lies in the vote.
Public opinion decides who the votes get cast for, but the power still lies in the vote.

I think it important not to confuse the power with the mechanisms for obtaining that power. Otherwise you risk thinking that changing public opinion is an accomplishment. It is only an accomplishment if it translates into votes. Campaign donations are only powerfull if they translate into votes.

It's a subtle distingtion I admit, but I think its an important one and here's why:

Think about it in terms of China and public opinion. They've eliminated the votes = power relationship and thus so neatly destroy the mechanism turning public opinion into power. The result being that public opinion doesn't matter (much).
Why can't we do the same with money?

samadams wrote:
The question is will this be enough to get people to vote for the change that is needed.

One of my, perhaps too subtle, points was that the change is not on the ballot
You can't be voted for if your not on the ballot.

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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:32 am 
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I understand your point on the change not being on the ballot, to an extent. However, that also negates the power of the vote if it is true. I believe that the power does lie in the vote as you suggest but that money and other factors hinder it. In summary, here is some of the problem in simple terms:

1. The availability of candidates that are interested in real change are far and few between. The people don't want to do it.
2. Even if a real candidate is found, they may not have the money to get the proper awareness to the people.
3. Even if the money is found and the candidate reaches the polls, most people won't vote for the new person with new ideas.
4. That means the greater of the two evils in a two party system is elected.
5. And that is why many people just don't vote, creating a habitual cycle that prevents change.

Awareness and public opinion is then a precursor to voting for change, where the first issue is getting someone/something on the ballot that is change in the right direction at all.

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...in my humble opinion, as all my statements should be considered.
Political Compass
"What should a free man do?" --Spartan Queen (300)
"Be the change you wish to see in the world." --Gandhi (kind of)
"What man is a man who does not make the world better?"--Balien of Ibelin (Kingdom of Heaven)
"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter."--MLKJ
"Democracy is a device that insures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." --George Bernard Shaw


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 Post subject: Re: Show 229-Put Up or Shut Up
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:03 am 
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The Common Sense podcast is both my favorite and my most important. Some of my friends think the same thing also. The podcast has had an effect on me: I've become more motivated to participate in the system, not just vote in a general election. I just got done with my duties as a state delegate, where there were lots of new, young people becoming involved in the process.

Dan is a leader, just not the kind he thinks he needs to be. He is making a difference, but probably in ways that aren't easily measurable.

So the question is how to make a bigger difference, do more good, touch more people...

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