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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:17 pm 
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Satrap
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CentristNut wrote:
Kolokol888 wrote:
I don't know the science behind the any of this but seriously why would you question the doctor? It is their job to know more than us!



You've obviously never encountered a lousy doctor or a pill-pusher. I had to argue with a doc who wanted to give me an antibiotic prescription for what he diagnosed as a viral infection. Even a marginally educated person should know that antibiotics won't touch a viral infection, just bacterial ones. I told him I wouldn't take it since I had a viral infection, I'd just go home and feel lousy for a few days. He called in the prescription anyway so I didn't fill it. :facepalm:

And doctors are not gods. Yeah, it IS their job to know more than us, but there are just as many lousy, dishonest, or plain stupid doctors as there are car mechanics, lawyers, tax attorneys, etc. It is YOUR job to question them if something doesn't seem right. You are are you only advocate and it's your responsibility to take care of yourself first and foremost.


Right on, dude. From a distance I deal with doctors all day and they run the gambit. As for some on this thread, some have been the most hypocritical, lying pieces of shit on record. Some of you owe me an apology and I will be coming to collect. I have refused service to frauds and assholes they at least had to do something. Not just refuse to buy whatever I was selling. Let's see what we have established here, a healthcare provider can deny service because they are having a crisis of conscience? Really, that is a new one. Since when? Some of you have been on record to the contrary. Hey guys, Civil rights laws mean nothing, just ask for someone's shot records and when they don't have them on hand, because they are not livestock or housepets, you can kick them out of your place of business (which is what a doctor's office is) and call them filthy monkeys and drop a dime to social services. DBTrek and Zeppy said it's ok!!

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:17 am 
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clubgop wrote:
Some of you owe me an apology and I will be coming to collect.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh that is really funny

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:04 am 
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If you think a doctor is full of crap, get a second opinion- from another doctor. Getting your tits out for Playboy doesn't qualify someone as a neurologist.

As for the purported 'link' or correlation between rising vaccinations and rising Autism diagnoses- One word- Covariance

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:21 am 
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Kolokol888 wrote:
I don't know the science behind the any of this but seriously why would you question the doctor? It is their job to know more than us!


Yes, it is. And sometimes people don't do their job properly.

It has little to do with vaccines, because they're something that's generally agreed upon, doctors are human beings, too. Meaning some of them can be incompetent, negligent, simply unlucky, or even "corrupt" (as in "sponsored doctors"). I have chronic eye pains brought on by a bad reaction to a drug treatment of acne when I was a teen, and today I attend a course for chronic pain sufferers where three out of eight attendees on the course have either had their pains caused or increased by treatment (surgery).

That doesn't mean you "can't trust doctors", it means mistakes happen. Mistakes with potentially serious consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:10 am 
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Nomarch
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CentristNut wrote:
Kolokol888 wrote:
I don't know the science behind the any of this but seriously why would you question the doctor? It is their job to know more than us!



You've obviously never encountered a lousy doctor or a pill-pusher. I had to argue with a doc who wanted to give me an antibiotic prescription for what he diagnosed as a viral infection. Even a marginally educated person should know that antibiotics won't touch a viral infection, just bacterial ones. I told him I wouldn't take it since I had a viral infection, I'd just go home and feel lousy for a few days. He called in the prescription anyway so I didn't fill it. :facepalm:

And doctors are not gods. Yeah, it IS their job to know more than us, but there are just as many lousy, dishonest, or plain stupid doctors as there are car mechanics, lawyers, tax attorneys, etc. It is YOUR job to question them if something doesn't seem right. You are are you only advocate and it's your responsibility to take care of yourself first and foremost.


I never ment you shouldn't be informed and talk to the doc. But I still maintain it requires a very healthy ego to substitute ones own judgement from someone who has studied the subject for years. Your situations sounds like an obvious exception, though if it was me I would seek a second opinion rather than just ignore the doc (there are rare cases where antibiotics help against viruses).

You can NOT compare doctors to carmechanics. Thats the whole point of MD being a protected title and requiring a certified exam. Anyone can take the title mechanic. And you're right I have never encountered a lousy doctor.

PS. This is part of general trend. Mainly due to the internet experts are being questioned and ignored at unprecedented rates in all professions which has both pros and cons. Google does not equal studying!

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:43 am 
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Hetairoi
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Kolokol888 wrote:
I never ment you shouldn't be informed and talk to the doc. But I still maintain it requires a very healthy ego to substitute ones own judgement from someone who has studied the subject for years. Your situations sounds like an obvious exception, though if it was me I would seek a second opinion rather than just ignore the doc (there are rare cases where antibiotics help against viruses).

You can NOT compare doctors to car mechanics. Thats the whole point of MD being a protected title and requiring a certified exam. Anyone can take the title mechanic. And you're right I have never encountered a lousy doctor.

PS. This is part of general trend. Mainly due to the internet experts are being questioned and ignored at unprecedented rates in all professions which has both pros and cons. Google does not equal studying!
I'm sorry, but I've seen way too many examples of doctors being rushed and careless to say you can't push back against a doctor's judgement. One of my close friends had to self-diagnose her child's extreme celiac disease because after months of her newborn losing weight and becoming frightening sickly in appearance the doctor didn't commit the necessary effort to figure out what was wrong. She literally did her own research, collected a stool sample, sent it off to a lab, and presented her doctor with the results. After removing gluten the child went from sickly and badly under weight to healthy in less than a month. This is merely one anecdote, but in my immediate family I can tell 5 more. Extending further I can tell dozens. Doctors in the United States today are simply too rushed and too self involved to go look up your symptoms in the books beside their desk to tell you what is wrong. They just want to write you a prescription and get you out of their office so they can go on to the next patient. When they are seeing 20 patients a day, they don't have time to listen to your symptoms and do the basic research it would take for them to figure out what is wrong.

Doctors DO have the education and experience needed to more accurately determine what is going on with you than you do, but finding one willing to put in the work needed to do so is no longer simple. Maybe you have a doctor who will sit down with you for an hour to understand your condition well, and will spend another hour or two researching it over the next week. To expect ANYONE to be able to recognize thousands of complex conditions in a 15 minute session though is entirely unreasonable. I have friends who are doctors and studying to become doctors who are well aware of this problem. The health insurance model in America is creating a broken health care system that makes doctors far less useful to us that they ought to be. Believing that you can just throw yourself on their judgement and expect it will be reliable is simply not the case in America today.

None of this applies to something like vaccines though, which are in no way case by case situations without a clear consensus to reference. When it comes to an understanding of the research that has been done, you can generally trust a doctor to know a whole lot more about it than you do. This might not always be true in a fast moving field if the doctor you are talking to is not an expert on it (such as talking to a general primary care physician about autism), and there are a lot of quacks in fast moving fields (again, thinking about autism), but even if vaccines WERE increasing autism rates they are still probably worth the risk and there is NO credible evidence that this is in fact the case.


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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:45 am 
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Archon
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I'm surprised at the level of misinformation on this forum regarding vaccines.

Moving away from herd immunity thoughts on vaccines would be similar to saying, "Well, we put the roof on the house a couple of years ago and haven't been rained on since, so I think we can take the roof down now."


:roll:

The reason we don't have these diseases running rampant in our society is exactly because people get vaccinated.

:facepalm:

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:53 am 
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Hetairoi
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Kath wrote:
The reason we don't have these diseases running rampant in our society is exactly because people get vaccinated.
Agreed, but does that mean we should criminalize not getting them? I think we all understand this premise, but what more can we DO about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:54 am 
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Kath wrote:
I'm surprised at the level of misinformation on this forum regarding vaccines.

Moving away from herd immunity thoughts on vaccines would be similar to saying, "Well, we put the roof on the house a couple of years ago and haven't been rained on since, so I think we can take the roof down now."


Well, isn't that what we did with smallpox?

The disease was eradicated and we stopped immunizing in 1972. Why did we stop? Because the risks of contracting smallpox was lower than the costs/risks of vaccinating.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/vaccination/facts.asp
Quote:
In the past, between 14 and 52 people out of every 1 million people vaccinated for the first time experienced potentially life-threatening reactions to the vaccine. Based on past experience, it is estimated that 1 or 2 people in 1 million who receive the vaccine may die as a result. Careful screening of potential vaccine recipients is essential to ensure that those at increased risk do not receive the vaccine.


If there was zero cost and risks to vaccinations, we'd still be vaccinating everyone for smallpox just in case there's a new outbreak.

There are risks to vaccines, but for active diseases, the benefits outweigh the risks. Eventually the disease becomes so rare, and the risk so low, the vaccine isn't worth it.

Quote:
Routine smallpox vaccination among the American public stopped in 1972 after the disease was eradicated in the United States. Until recently, the U.S. government provided the vaccine only to a few hundred scientists and medical professionals working with smallpox and similar viruses in a research setting.


An accurate portrayal of vaccines is: "1 in a million may die from the vaccine, but for an active disease, hundreds or thousands may die without the vaccine. We will vaccinate until the risk of the disease is less than the risk of vaccination."

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:11 am 
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Atanamis wrote:
Kath wrote:
The reason we don't have these diseases running rampant in our society is exactly because people get vaccinated.
Agreed, but does that mean we should criminalize not getting them? I think we all understand this premise, but what more can we DO about it?
I was about to ask her the same question. I personally don't think we should criminalize not receiving a vaccine except in extreme circumstances and shit like the bird flu fear mongering that went down not so long ago certainly doesn't qualify as extreme circumstances. An outbreak of small pox on the other hand would obviously be an extreme circumstance.

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:16 am 
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Archon
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Atanamis wrote:
Kath wrote:
The reason we don't have these diseases running rampant in our society is exactly because people get vaccinated.
Agreed, but does that mean we should criminalize not getting them? I think we all understand this premise, but what more can we DO about it?

Yeah, I'm not advocating jail time or anything. I could probably support a general shun by society, like, yeah your kid doesn't have to be vaccinated but they certainly cannot attend public school, regardless of your religious views.

@Boethius - you're so fucking obtuse, taking one view all the way to the extreme. No, we shouldn't monitor food intake and exercise. You always forget there's another extreme side. If the cost of a free society is that people will die, then why not make murderous rampages through the mall legal? That's just a price of living in a free society, right?

Both extreme views are ridiculous, yet you can only see one of them. Typical Boethius. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:22 am 
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Kath wrote:
@Boethius - you're so fucking obtuse, taking one view all the way to the extreme. No, we shouldn't monitor food intake and exercise. You always forget there's another extreme side. If the cost of a free society is that people will die, then why not make murderous rampages through the mall legal? That's just a price of living in a free society, right?

Both extreme views are ridiculous, yet you can only see one of them. Typical Boethius. :roll:

The other extreme side is well represented (if not overly) on this forum.

Someone has to point out the absurdity of the statists--especially when they claim to hate state intervention on other aspects of their personal lives.

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"Boethius was the only user here to successfully piss me off IRL, and you'll notice it's been crickets from him for a while. I'm not saying he's dead now . . . but . . . :twisted:" -- DBTrek

"How about you just suck on a cyanide lollipop and spare us your fucking hyperbole you whining little nancy?" -- Cid

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:36 am 
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boethius wrote:
Kath wrote:
@Boethius - you're so fucking obtuse, taking one view all the way to the extreme. No, we shouldn't monitor food intake and exercise. You always forget there's another extreme side. If the cost of a free society is that people will die, then why not make murderous rampages through the mall legal? That's just a price of living in a free society, right?

Both extreme views are ridiculous, yet you can only see one of them. Typical Boethius. :roll:

The other extreme side is well represented (if not overly) on this forum.

Someone has to point out the absurdity of the statists--especially when they claim to hate state intervention on other aspects of their personal lives.


That is what I'm talking about! No need to balance your message. Your message IS balance.

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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:43 am 
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I think it's more of a hyper-overreaction on the side of the usual right-wing luddites. I've been accused of saying parents should be investigated, and it's something I've never said. But FOXNews has trained you monkeys well, so if some random poster claims that ALL THE LIBERALS WANT JAIL TIME for anti-vaccine nuts then you brainwashed cattle go along with the deception because it suits your ignorant preconceived notions of how things are.

*Yawn*


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 Post subject: Re: Doctors to vaccine refusers: Go somewhere else
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:04 am 
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Kath wrote:
I'm surprised at the level of misinformation on this forum regarding vaccines.

Moving away from herd immunity thoughts on vaccines would be similar to saying, "Well, we put the roof on the house a couple of years ago and haven't been rained on since, so I think we can take the roof down now."


:roll:

The reason we don't have these diseases running rampant in our society is exactly because people get vaccinated.

:facepalm:


While I fully support the vast majority of all vaccines being given on the recommended schedule, I still feel like it's a parental choice.


In the interest of full disclosure, I did not vaccinate my son and won't vaccinate my soon-to-be-born baby girl for Hep B at birth. Hep B is transmitted by blood-to-blood contact or by having sex with an infected person. Oral sex may transmit hepatitis B, especially swallowing semen from an infected man. I'm waiting till it's required for school. It seems ridiculous to be required at birth. We aren't traveling to any questionable foreign countries and if my toddler is sharing needles or having sex for money, I have WAY bigger problems to contend with.


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