Racism - A Booming Business

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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:56 am

It leads to self-destruction.

Classic example.. Two kingdoms: A and B. A adheres to a strict form of moral relativism. Thus they live by the rule that other peoples' values, though different, are equally valid and have equal worth to any other peoples' values. They must not violate that edict. B adheres to the philosophy of might makes right; power and domination. B believes A is weak and that it is B's moral imperative to crush A, and enslave them. What does A do about that?

It's a contradiction. At some point, moral relativism always has to break, because in reality, people are not actually that stupid.


I very much sympathize with the need to foster an integrated and tolerant society. That is what makes nations strong. The problem here arises when a person takes the statement, there is no absolute truth, to also mean every ethical system is equally valid. That turns into nonsense, contradictions, and absurd outcomes almost immediately. All intellectual ideas and value systems can be ranked. We might disagree upon the metrics, and we might make qualifications depending upon contexts, but we should not assume two conflicting ideas are equally valid.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby Runicmadhamster » Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:10 am

i agree with your conclusion. in my mind you cannot have a society founded on absolutes, a society needs to compromise and adapt to survive
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby hondo69 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:03 am

A big part of the problem, as I see it, stems from the fact that it is impossible to have an honest discussion on the issue. Like taxes, the deficit, social programs, immigrations, or what have you, any real discussion never gets past first base. Raise any of these topics and everyone starts throwing bombs.

"I think Obama is wrong on Israel" = racist bastard

"We need to overhaul the tax system" = you must be a Wall Street fat cat

Frankly, it's shocking to me that our country has devolved to the point where we're basically back to the 1500's with it's Witch Hunts and similar illogical behavior. It would be easy to make the case that our country was far more advanced in the 40s and 50s even given the fact that racism was rampant. At least you could have an honest discussion about most big issues facing the country. And no one would even consider throwing out silly arguments that make zero sense simply because they'd be thrown in the loony bin in an instant.

But today we're bombarded with lunacy and silly arguments all day every day in the papers we read or TV channels we watch. And no one seems to notice. History has proven we're in a very dangerous sitution and we'd do well to study where this leads. The consequences are always the same and they're not pretty.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby DrYouth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:48 am

hondo69 wrote:A big part of the problem, as I see it, stems from the fact that it is impossible to have an honest discussion on the issue. Like taxes, the deficit, social programs, immigrations, or what have you, any real discussion never gets past first base. Raise any of these topics and everyone starts throwing bombs.

"I think Obama is wrong on Israel" = racist bastard

"We need to overhaul the tax system" = you must be a Wall Street fat cat

Frankly, it's shocking to me that our country has devolved to the point where we're basically back to the 1500's with it's Witch Hunts and similar illogical behavior. It would be easy to make the case that our country was far more advanced in the 40s and 50s even given the fact that racism was rampant. At least you could have an honest discussion about most big issues facing the country. And no one would even consider throwing out silly arguments that make zero sense simply because they'd be thrown in the loony bin in an instant.

I think this is simple nostalgia for the good old days...
I don't think the "honest discussions" you pine for existed any more in the 40's and 50's than they do today. Ideological positions existed just as much in these decades as they do today. You would be dismissed as a radical, a communist or a feminist with as much vigor in these decades for raising any challenges to the status quo. People get upset if you challenge taboo topics. What is taboo depends on the culture and on the individual you are talking to. It will always be that way.

hondo69 wrote: today we're bombarded with lunacy and silly arguments all day every day in the papers we read or TV channels we watch. And no one seems to notice. History has proven we're in a very dangerous sitution and we'd do well to study where this leads. The consequences are always the same and they're not pretty.

This may have more to do with the ridiculous state of the corporate dominated media than anything else. The average attention span of our citizens has taken a considerable hit I will grant you that.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby MisterNichols » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:04 am

I'm not being a moral relativist.

I do, however, think that we have way too much top-down management of community standards.

Now that we have a black president, everything that is done against him is either racist or grounded in racism. The poor quality of inner city schools is racism. The GOP's effort to make it harder for hispanics to vote in many states through the use of tighter ID requirements is racism.

Well, I don't buy the line that this these things are racist. At their core, these actions just represent the tactics of a particular divide and conquer strategy. At the top level, the oligarchs and political hacks who run this operation may be racist, but they probably aren't. But does it really matter if they are racist?

The Democrat oligarchs use the mirror of this strategy, often using claims of racism to hurt the other side. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton use these tactics all the time.

I think it's time that we took racism off the table for slandering people on a national level. We are too quick to throw that label into the world. I think that we can manage racism with shame on the community level.

I also think that we should give people more leeway to play with racism, sexism, and other politically-incorrect concepts. We have gotten too orthodox in our views on this subject.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby DrYouth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:33 am

MisterNichols wrote: I also think that we should give people more leeway to play with racism, sexism, and other politically-incorrect concepts. We have gotten too orthodox in our views on this subject.

Play with racism and sexism.... Like some kind of kinky S&M gig....
People can be as racist and sexist as they want as long as it doesn't actually harm any one.
As soon as it does it stops being ok.

In other words if your racism leads you to beat someone up - hard to look at that as playing.
If your sexism leads you to fire your female staff when you take over a company. You are going to be facing questions.
If your racism leads you to tell someone that they are inferior because of they're race I hope you are called out on it.

If I here someone espousing racist views I'll call them on it. I have as much of a right to my views that all should be treated with respect regardless of their race as the racist has to his views that certain races deserve less respect. But it's when the racist actually infringes on the rights of others that he loses any right to his position.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby MisterNichols » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:31 am

DrYouth wrote:If I here someone espousing racist views I'll call them on it. I have as much of a right to my views that all should be treated with respect regardless of their race as the racist has to his views that certain races deserve less respect. But it's when the racist actually infringes on the rights of others that he loses any right to his position.


Well, it seems to me that western society has taken the view that racist attitudes do infringe on the rights of others.

And this thinking extends to how we treat obesity, smoking, drug use, and homosexuality. We are constantly trying to regulate the beliefs and actions of others.

I find it odd that you all take racism so seriously. Is a murder any more heinous when it is a murder motivated by racism? I don't think so. Thus I find hate crime legislation to be utter nonsense, because it is sufficient to prosecute murder as murder without dragging other issues into the discussion.

And i'll extend this to rape. Why should assault and murder be treated specially as rape when a man, a woman, and forced sex are involved? Are the crimes of assault and murder not good enough for you people?

And I'll go for one more point. In the states we have rules about not discriminating on the basis of race or sex for the purposes of hiring and employment. These rules don't end discrimination, they merely redirect it.

That black guy was turned down not because he's black, but because he wasn't the most "qualified" applicant.

Susan wasn't taken off the fast track because she just had a baby, we're just lightening her load to help her make the transition back into work.

I would much rather have more naked racism and discrimination than this nonsense system we've settled on.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby DrYouth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:55 am

MisterNichols wrote: Well, it seems to me that western society has taken the view that racist attitudes do infringe on the rights of others.

And this thinking extends to how we treat obesity, smoking, drug use, and homosexuality. We are constantly trying to regulate the beliefs and actions of others.

I find it odd that you all take racism so seriously. Is a murder any more heinous when it is a murder motivated by racism? I don't think so. Thus I find hate crime legislation to be utter nonsense, because it is sufficient to prosecute murder as murder without dragging other issues into the discussion.

And i'll extend this to rape. Why should assault and murder be treated specially as rape when a man, a woman, and forced sex are involved? Are the crimes of assault and murder not good enough for you people?

And I'll go for one more point. In the states we have rules about not discriminating on the basis of race or sex for the purposes of hiring and employment. These rules don't end discrimination, they merely redirect it.

That black guy was turned down not because he's black, but because he wasn't the most "qualified" applicant.

Susan wasn't taken off the fast track because she just had a baby, we're just lightening her load to help her make the transition back into work.

I would much rather have more naked racism and discrimination than this nonsense system we've settled on.

I don't think I take racism more seriously than any other issue.
Intolerance of any kind can be a problem. Including not being tolerant of people's choices around nutrition, risk taking, drug use, homosexuality. I don't have stronger opinions around racism than any other form of intolerance and I'll call if is see it... if it's any of my business that is.... and quite frankly it rarely is.
Like I said earlier crying "discrimination" shouldn't end the conversation. It can sometimes be a tool people use to get other's to back off - so I agree that there can be problems with "playing the discrimination card". This isn't always the case but it can be used this way.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby hondo69 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:03 pm

DrYouth wrote: I don't think the "honest discussions" you pine for existed any more in the 40's and 50's than they do today.


If you go back and read editorials in popular magazines such Life, or even many of the newspapers around at that time you'll see a very striking difference from those of today. Arguments are made logically, point by point, with facts and reasoning to back them up. Writers of these articles knew their audience was intelligent and analytical and could therfore follow valid reasoning. But they also knew a misstep would be fatal so they better have all their ducks in a row.

Try doing the same thing today. You'll lose the audience after the first paragraph if you don't throw them some red meat right away. "The iceburgs are melting because Bush was an idiot . . ."

You get the idea. The last thing you want to do these days is make a logical argument that requires some thinking to follow. The thinking part is where we seem to get into trouble.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby DrYouth » Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:57 pm

The average attention span is a lot shorter these days...
The media on average puts out glossy articles with little substance and lots of sensationalist spin. That's what sells.
Choose your media sources carefully and stay away from the mainstream would be my recommendation.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby Runicmadhamster » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:08 pm

MisterNichols wrote:I find it odd that you all take racism so seriously. Is a murder any more heinous when it is a murder motivated by racism? I don't think so. Thus I find hate crime legislation to be utter nonsense, because it is sufficient to prosecute murder as murder without dragging other issues into the discussion.



Lets raise your question to the next level, is a genocide more heinous than a mass murder of random individuals? in my view a genocide is far worse.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby The Mad Zeppelineer » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:40 pm

MisterNichols wrote:I think it's time that we took racism off the table for slandering people on a national level. We are too quick to throw that label into the world.


But what if, you know, the person accused of racism is a racist?
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:45 pm

Yeah, of course there are no racists at the national level, right? I can't think of even ONE crusty, rude little man who could *possibly* be considered a racist based upon numerous racist comments, affiliations with white supremest organizations, and consistent opposition to anything that celebrates black culture or civil rights. Yeah, we are probably good to go here. :empty:
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby The Mad Zeppelineer » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:52 pm

MisterNichols wrote:
And i'll extend this to rape. Why should assault and murder be treated specially as rape when a man, a woman, and forced sex are involved? Are the crimes of assault and murder not good enough for you people?

What the fuck is wrong with you? Rape is not the same as a fistfight or some random beating. I dont see how you could have reached adulthood without understanding this basic self evident concept.

And I'll go for one more point. In the states we have rules about not discriminating on the basis of race or sex for the purposes of hiring and employment. These rules don't end discrimination, they merely redirect it.

So open discrimination should be allowed?


That black guy was turned down not because he's black, but because he wasn't the most "qualified" applicant.

Em, sometimes he was turned down because he is black. http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html seriously, read this study.
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Re: Racism - A Booming Business

Postby MisterNichols » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:55 am

Yes I think we should allow more open discrimination.

I think that we should do this because open discrimination is easier to confront and deal with than discrimination that is dressed up in diversity and inclusion.

I know I'm pushing the envelope here, but if I own a business, why shouldn't I be able to deny an entire class of people employment if that's how I feel?

And so what if that locks an entire group of people out of the job market? That diverted stream of labor will either create their own sub-economy, or, failing that, we will find out where the real discrimination is in society, and then we can take collective action to remedy it.

Why would any of you be afraid of open discrimination?
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