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 Post subject: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:21 am 
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In WWII the Russian army had enormous loses against the Germans, but the Germans never managed to knock out Russian production, it was just to far inland to reach. So what if Japan, instead of going for the European colonial possesions and the U.S., attacked Russia near Vladivostok. The Russians then would need to fight a two-front war, when there already heaving issues with managing one front. I don't think Stalin would have won that war, effictively making all German resources available for beating the British, and there was no Pearl Harbour, so the U.S. would probably not be involved.

I think i'd be speaking German right now if this happened...

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:24 pm 
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That is a very interesting idea, considering it would be the Germans, Russians, U.S, and Britain would all have had a two front war history may have been drastically changed if that ,in fact did happen. Might I also add the U.S. were the people in modern time to win a two front war.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:55 pm 
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Why didn't they? Well probably because they were pretty heavy into China. While a lot of Soviet production was far from the Germans, it wasn't necessarily close to the Japanese, and then of course there's the continental winter in the Asian steppe....Um, just trust the Sicilian.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:37 pm 
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I'm not confident in the accuracy of my comment but I remember a History Channel program about Soviet and Japanese relations during the Second World War some years ago. According to my memory of the program, Japanese armies did cross from Manchuria to Soviet territory before the German invasion began, it might have been in 1940 or 1939, I can't remember the date. They were soundly defeated, then the Japanese government arranged for a treaty of a sort to prevent fighting from breaking out again and some sort of diplomatic relationship.

In another post (viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11968), exposno1 talked about how the Emperor or some other part of the government was trying to negotiate a peace with the Allies through the Soviets whom at the time were not involved in the Asian War. It might have been related somehow to this "treaty" that I hope I remember right.

So if my memory of the program is right, and if such a program actually existed, the Japanese army did attack the Soviet Union during the Second World War but before the German invasion. Of course, these are big "if"s and I wouldn't stake anything on it. But I hope it will help.


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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:16 am 
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I would like to point out that Japan was always on Soviet Union's mind. USSR throughout the war always kept many divisions on the east, specifically to counter Japanese threat. In most desperate hour, during battle for Moscow in fall 1941 several of them were pulled out to fight Germans, after Stalin was completely assured that Japan would not attack during this period.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:11 pm 
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YSH wrote:
In WWII the Russian army had enormous loses against the Germans, but the Germans never managed to knock out Russian production, it was just to far inland to reach. So what if Japan, instead of going for the European colonial possesions and the U.S., attacked Russia near Vladivostok. The Russians then would need to fight a two-front war, when there already heaving issues with managing one front. I don't think Stalin would have won that war, effictively making all German resources available for beating the British, and there was no Pearl Harbour, so the U.S. would probably not be involved.

I think i'd be speaking German right now if this happened...


Unfortunately, you are really underestimating how entangled Japan was in China. Or that the Russians(under a young whippersnapper named Zhukov) had stomped the heck out of them before WW2. Or that Russia maintained a large amount of forces in the Far East all the way up to the Battle of Moscow.

So, let's say Japan attacks Russia. Now what? Are they going to win? No, the Russian Army is much more mechanized than the Japanese military. All they got is some territory in the Far East(assuming they can scrounge the troops for an occupation) that is economically worthless and Russia pissed off at them.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:56 pm 
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Of course this assumes Japan wanted to conquer and hold vast regions of freezing empty Siberia. They might nibble at the corners, an the Russians could just let them have the territory until the Germans were defeated.


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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:03 am 
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emjoi wrote:
Of course this assumes Japan wanted to conquer and hold vast regions of freezing empty Siberia. They might nibble at the corners, an the Russians could just let them have the territory until the Germans were defeated.


Well, yeah, historically the Japanese did want to occupy Siberia.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:02 pm 
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wasn't there a Japanese sub that sank a Russian sub before WWII...I remember hearing something to that effect on the history channel.

The Japanese were not at a strategical position to attack Russia, they would of had to trek through all of china where they would of met resistance...not very harsh resistance but it would of been a slow process or they would of had to trek across the siberian tundra for a long long time. It would not of been practical for them to do this. But if they would of suceeded at taking down moscow with the germans than we might of been speaking german right now.

That is a very improviable yet scary scenerio.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:37 pm 
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bigred wrote:
wasn't there a Japanese sub that sank a Russian sub before WWII...I remember hearing something to that effect on the history channel.

The Japanese were not at a strategical position to attack Russia, they would of had to trek through all of china where they would of met resistance...not very harsh resistance but it would of been a slow process or they would of had to trek across the siberian tundra for a long long time. It would not of been practical for them to do this. But if they would of suceeded at taking down moscow with the germans than we might of been speaking german right now.

That is a very improviable yet scary scenerio.


I...I honestly don't think you know your geography? Why would Japan have to "trek all through China" to get to Russia? Heck, during the Allied Intervention in the Russian Civil War the Japanese pushed all the way out to Lake Baikal...and this was without Manchukuo as a launch point.

The point I was trying to make is that the conflict in China was a black hole of IJA personnel...think of it as Iraq times a thousand. While it's possible the Japanese could have marched in and grabbed a good chunk of Far East Russia, they would never have the manpower to make good their attack.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Interesting topic. My thoughts:

Remember, the Japanese already had control of Manchuria and Korea decades before the war. They had little to gain from attacking Russia. Perhaps, if WWII was a typical 19th-century balance-of-power war, it would have been a good geo-political bargaining chip to have Vladivostok, but WWII was all-or-nothing. Japan's whole motive for expansion was to wrest control of China and Southeast Asia from European imperialist powers. Once and for all. Siberia was in the wrong direction, especially if you consider the vastness of the territory they controlled at their height. Compare the resources of China or Indonesia to Siberia, or the strategic value of taking Singapore from the British - which is a more compelling place to conquer?

What is interesting to me is to consider what might have happened if they had waited longer to attack Pearl Harbor, or had not attacked at all. Maybe they could have subjugated Australia and consolidated their hold on China. Maybe even go after India. Ghengis Khan had conquered and held a comparably-scaled empire. Who knows.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:43 pm 
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Well, yes, but didn't the Mongols do that by letting the locals run things while they got drunk and decided which proto - nation to knock off next?

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:24 pm 
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Well, the Japanese did develop an A bomb in the war and tested it. It may seem crazy, but I guess I am a pesi-optimist

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:57 pm 
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larry1617 wrote:
Well, the Japanese did develop an A bomb in the war and tested it. It may seem crazy, but I guess I am a pesi-optimist


No, they didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: What if Japan attacked Russia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:20 am 
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Lonestar wrote:
larry1617 wrote:
Well, the Japanese did develop an A bomb in the war and tested it. It may seem crazy, but I guess I am a pesi-optimist


No, they didn't.


Where does larry1617 get this stuff from?

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