War Plan Red - Green Lit

Discuss the "What If's" of historical events.

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War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby StCapps » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:01 pm

The Post WWI US-UK naval rivalry heats up after the US refuses to sign to Washington Naval Treaty and the Washington Naval Conference falls apart. A Naval arms race for world naval supremacy ensues increasing tension between these nations. The UK is worried that it will be unable to use Canada as a staging point if war breaks out and sends Indian troops to Canada through Vancouver in order to shore up defenses. This action triggers massive amounts of suspicion that UK plans to attack the US via Canada and in order to prevent this from happening the US Green Lights War Plan Red in 1933 or is attacked by the British and Canada with perhaps something along the lines of Defense Scheme No. 1.

Due to the race for naval supremacy between the US and UK, Japan is a very distant 3rd and it would be unwise for them to intervene in the war until one of the sides is significantly weakened. Japan will thus focus it's territorial expansion elsewhere in Pacific, at least at beginning of this hypothetical war. My questions are how is this war most likely to play out and how would the war effect the events occuring in continential Europe and East Asia after it begins?
Last edited by StCapps on Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby The Road Rascal » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:42 pm

Wasn't there an award winning documentary on the subject a few years back?


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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby StCapps » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:04 am

This thread is only interesting enough to attract a joke about a South Park movie? I guess I severly over-estimated the interest such a thread could generate. I thought the military geeks might enjoy discussing such a scenario but it hasn't turned out that way.

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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby Atanamis » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:21 am

StCapps wrote:This thread is only interesting enough to attract a joke about a South Park movie? I guess I severly over-estimated the interest such a thread could generate. I thought the military geeks might enjoy discussing such a scenario but it hasn't turned out that way.
You should ask DBTrek for lessons on thread creation. I bet you had he created the thread, it would be 20 pages long by now. Anyway, I'm not very good at thread creation either, so don't feel too bad about it.
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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby Smitty-48 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:25 pm

StCapps wrote:This thread is only interesting enough to attract a joke about a South Park movie? I guess I severly over-estimated the interest such a thread could generate. I thought the military geeks might enjoy discussing such a scenario but it hasn't turned out that way.

*sigh*


Well first of all, it's not MilGeek. MilGeek is not about what if scenarios from a century ago... that's HistGeek. MilGeek is more about what if scenarios for the balloon going up somewhere next week.

MilGeek is forward looking. The Military Historical record is a reference, only to support arguments pertaining to current, imminent, or likely events, at the leading edge of doctrine, strategy, tactics and technology, etc.


Second, you didn't take a firm stance, preferably a controversial, or counter intuitive one, as to where you stand and what your assertion is.

If you want to start a debate, don't ask a question, get up in peoples grills and make an argument. The more controversial, or provocative, the more chance that sparks will fly.

If you want to bait MilGeeks in, you're going to have to get a lot more technical mind you. I mean the 'what if the moon were made of cheese...discuss' kind of thing isn't going to get you very far.

Need to know your MilShit, before you can dance with the MilGeeks.

If you want to get into the seedy MilGeek Subculture, here are some sites to give you some ammo;

http://exiledonline.com/cat/war-nerd/

http://gwynnedyer.com/

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/

http://defensetech.org/

http://www.soldiersystems.net/

Here's the best Canadian one FYI;

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacit ... fault.aspx
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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby StCapps » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:53 pm

Smitty-48 wrote:
StCapps wrote:This thread is only interesting enough to attract a joke about a South Park movie? I guess I severly over-estimated the interest such a thread could generate. I thought the military geeks might enjoy discussing such a scenario but it hasn't turned out that way.

*sigh*


Well first of all, it's not MilGeek. MilGeek is not about what if scenarios from a century ago... that's HistGeek. MilGeek is more about what if scenarios for the balloon going up somewhere next week.

MilGeek is forward looking. The Military Historical record is a reference, only to support arguments pertaining to current, imminent, or likely events, at the leading edge of doctrine, strategy, tactics and technology, etc.


Second, you didn't take a firm stance, preferably a controversial, or counter intuitive one, as to where you stand and what your assertion is.

If you want to start a debate, don't ask a question, get up in peoples grills and make an argument. The more controversial, or provocative, the more chance that sparks will fly.

If you want to bait MilGeeks in, you're going to have to get a lot more technical mind you. I mean the 'what if the moon were made of cheese...discuss' kind of thing isn't going to get you very far.

Need to know your MilShit, before you can dance with the MilGeeks.

If you want to get into the seedy MilGeek Subculture, here are some sites to give you some ammo;

http://exiledonline.com/cat/war-nerd/

http://gwynnedyer.com/

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/

http://defensetech.org/

Here's the best Canadian one FYI;

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacit ... fault.aspx

1) Okay Mil-History Geek, then. Is that a better term?
2) Thanks for the links, I will check em' out. But the reason I asked the question and didn't go into detail on what I thought would happen is I don't have that much knowledge about how it would have played out. I know I'm out of my league on this one which is why I asked the forum to help me figure out what might happen in this scenario. I don't feel qualified to make an accurate assessment but I figured some people on this foum might be not have that same impediment. So far though it appears to be wide-spread problem and is not limited to merely myself.
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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby Smitty-48 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:07 pm

StCapps wrote:1) Okay Mil-History Geek, then. Is that a better term?
2) Thanks for the links, I will check em' out. But the reason I asked the question and didn't go into detail on what I thought would happen is I don't have that much knowledge about how it would have played out. I know I'm out of my league on this one which is why I asked the forum to help me figure out what might happen in this scenario. I don't feel qualified to make an accurate assessment but I figured some people on this foum might be not have that same impediment. So far though it appears to be wide-spread problem and is not limited to merely myself.


MilHistGeek? Well I would say Britain didn't stand a chance. The British Empire broke itself on 1 July 1916, on the banks of the river Somme and never recovered. Bet the farm on Belgian neutrality and a short decisive war.. and they lost that bet. Britain was just going through the motions between the wars. When WWII came the British were exposed as the Paper Tiger they had become, and the US saddled easily into the driver seat, with the Soviets as the only other player of significance, already foreshadowing the coming Cold War confrontation.


Britain would not have initiated a conflict with the US under any circumstances. They would have sent a Neville Chamberlain to Washington to make a deal, no mater how bad the terms were.
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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby StCapps » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:15 pm

Smitty-48 wrote:Britain would not have initiated a conflict with the US under any circumstances. They would have sent a Neville Chamberlain to Washington to make a deal, no mater how bad the terms were.
So you think the British would just let the US have world naval supremacy rather than risk a war to attempt to maintain it?
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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby Smitty-48 » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:21 pm

StCapps wrote:
Smitty-48 wrote:Britain would not have initiated a conflict with the US under any circumstances. They would have sent a Neville Chamberlain to Washington to make a deal, no mater how bad the terms were.
So you think the British would just let the US have world naval supremacy rather than risk a war to attempt to maintain it?


'Naval Supremacy', considered in a vacuum, was of no consequence. How many advanced warships could the British build in a year? How many could the US build? Wasn't even close. (See; WWII) The US already had the critical Industrial Supremacy and Britain was broke. The US was the Lender nation and the British were already in hock.

The British couldn't attack the country that they were relying for their bailout. Which came in 1940 when the Germans overran France, bypassed the carcass of the British Empire and threatened the British homeland with strategic existential defeat.'

The US stayed out long enough for the British to get desperate, then launched a 'hostile corporate takeover' under the rubric of 'saving Britain', when really the US was saving the British empire for itself, once it crushed the Germans and had the last of the Britons gold, safely squirreled away in Ft. Knox.
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Re: War Plan Red - Green Lit

Postby StCapps » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:32 pm

Smitty-48 wrote:'Naval Supremacy', considered in a vacuum, was of no consequence. How many advanced warships could the British build in a year? How many could the US build? Wasn't even close. (See; WWII) The US already had the critical Industrial Supremacy and Britain was broke. The US was the Lender nation and the British were already in hock.
Indeed if it were not for the Washington Naval Conference the US would have had world naval supremacy via the 1916 naval bill. The WNC, combined with the US underbuilding and even scrapping ships being built is what allowed Britain to maintain world naval supremacy until 1942-43. But if the WNC fell apart there was certainly a faction in Britain that would have tried to do something to prevent the rise of US Naval power.
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