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 Post subject: Operation Northwoods, and other "real" conspiracies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:33 pm 
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One topic I’d love to hear a show about is Operation Northwoods and other real, verified conspiracies of history.

The reason I’d love to hear a HH podcast that covers it as one of the points is that on the one hand, I think not enough people know that the Joint Chiefs of Staff once proposed false flag terrorist attacks as a pretext for war. But on the other hand, folks that talk about it tend to either directly use it as a blunt instrument to try to justify “9/11 was an inside job” claims, or to support some argument that smells a bit too fragrantly of patchouli oil. I think it’s a fascinating bit of modern history, and deserves to be told better, and the HH treatment would give it the nuance and historical context it deserves.

In the CS podcast I’ve heard him at least once defend a line of thinking against being called “conspiratorial” by pointing out that, looking at history, governments have tended to handle things in sneaky and covert ways, and that Occam’s Razor would indicate they’d continue to do so. Operation Northwoods is great fodder for that argument- it shows that, while jumping at shadowy conspiracy theories without evidence may not be sensible, to believe that conspiracies are not perpetrated by modern (or ancient) democratic societies simply goes against the empirical evidence.

I’d also like to hear about other modern day “proven” conspiracies. I enjoyed the inclusion of COINTELPRO and the actions against MLK in the “Radical Thoughts” episode, but I’d also like to hear about MK ULTRA and its inadvertent effects such as quite possibly driving the Unabomber to become what he became in an almost Darth Vader-esque way.

There are also a number of verified conspiracies to pull from in the past, the most obvious being the assassination of Julius Caesar (covered in past HH, but is a great example of the law of unintended consequences.) There’s also the Gunpowder Plot, and the Dreyfus Affair.

Why did they happen? How did they come to fruition, or not come to fruition? What were the consequences, and how did they work for or against the aims of the conspirators? Did they think the people would support them if they’d known, and were they correct in thinking so? And was there any common thread to the situations that led to these conspiracies- people that were facing an enemy they thought they couldn’t face any other way?


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Northwoods, and other "real" conspiracies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:42 pm 
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Northwoods is the most overblown CT of the lot. Its used to justify every nut's ideas on any given topic. People also forget that it was never used. The DOD has contingencies in file cabinets in the pentagon for everything. There are people whose entire job is to plan absurd things. Invasion of Canada? We've got a plan for that. Nuclear bombing of Norway into pulp? We've got that.

All "real" conspiracies are are groups of people getting together to do things. There are infinite different ones you could talk about.

The Final Solution was a conspiracy. The attack on Pearl Harbor. The Murder of Caesar, Lincoln, the Royal Family of Czarist Russia, etc etc. On and on.

What makes it a "modern" conspiracy theory is basically...lack of evidence.

Anywho... :welcome: The the forum!

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 Post subject: Re: Operation Northwoods, and other "real" conspiracies
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:14 pm 
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First of all, thanks for the welcome :thanks:
I’d agree the significance of Northwoods is overplayed by some, but I think you may be giving it short shrift. Sure, there may be some contingency plan for invading Canada in the bowels of the DoD, but I don’t think such a plan was ever submitted directly to the president by the Joint Chiefs for him to formally approve or reject putting into immediate motion. And yes, it was never used- because Kennedy rejected it. What if Nixon was in there instead? We already know he wasn’t shy about using nefarious means to reach his ends.

I’d also agree wholeheartedly that it’s “used to justify every nut's ideas on any given topic,” and as I wrote in the post, that’s exactly why I’d like to see it given a more nuanced and historical take on it, rather than just “here’s justification for my pet conspiracy theory.”

And yes, there are plenty of other historical conspiracies, which is exactly why I think it could make a good show. Certainly Northwoods itself would be pretty thin material to sustain a show, but it’s always in blending recent and ancient history that makes good HH episodes… bubonic nukes and barbarian biker gangs and whatnot. I’d like to see it omit “conspiracies” that were aimed at some external nation or force (e.g. Pearl Harbor, the Manhattan Project) and focus just on ones against ostensibly “friendly” targets, either to attack internal enemies or as pretext to attack external enemies.


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 Post subject: Re: Operation Northwoods, and other "real" conspiracies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:59 am 
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There were dozens of plans submitted to Kennedy with regards to Cuba. JFK and RFK were dedicated cold warriors. In some ways, much more so than even Nixon. Read: Legacy of Ashes http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Ashes-Hist ... 038551445X Or http://www.amazon.com/One-Minute-Midnig ... 1400043581

The Kennedy brothers had a hard-on for the spy services (partially due to having read James Bond novels, no Im not kidding). But they were not totally insane. The thing about Northwoods is that is was totally insane. So it wasnt used. But in the climate of paranoia and fear surrounding Cuba at the time, it makes total sense that the idea was floated by someone.

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focus just on ones against ostensibly “friendly” targets, either to attack internal enemies or as pretext to attack external enemies.


Im not sure what would qualify. Give an example.

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