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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:50 am 
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The Road Rascal wrote:
Do you think they had the Patriot Act prewritten before the attacks? It was what, one week after that they signed it?
What they voted on was largely blank paper. The actual text was added after the fact, from previous proposals that had been shelved. If that doesn't scare you, I don't know what will.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:05 pm 
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RAnthony wrote:
The Road Rascal wrote:
Do you think they had the Patriot Act prewritten before the attacks? It was what, one week after that they signed it?
What they voted on was largely blank paper. The actual text was added after the fact, from previous proposals that had been shelved. If that doesn't scare you, I don't know what will.


I don't even want to think about what's been written up for after the next 9/11. :hurl:


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:16 pm 
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RAnthony wrote:
What they voted on was largely blank paper. The actual text was added after the fact, from previous proposals that had been shelved. If that doesn't scare you, I don't know what will.

BLASPHEMER!!


:snicker:

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:44 am 
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RAnthony wrote:
No, you weren't. Any data on a truth site is automatically suspect, because they have already been caught falsifying data in order to make their case look stronger.

Physics in no way requires that there be explosives to bring those buildings down. Gravity works just fine if you cut enough supports, which those planes did. Please, please, please do not bother posting a series of photos and truth data backing up your beliefs. We've already been over that ground. I was an architect, and I have access to my own engineers. Your beliefs influence the overall credibility of the argument that you present. To someone who has not accepted the precepts you outline, the picture looks completely different.



I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

Please show me where these sites and only the sites I mentioned were caught falsifying data. They cannot be held accountable and made suspect if other people did falsify data. I'm sure you will find that Scholars for 911 Truth and Justice, Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth, Pilots for 911 Truth and David Chandler all use the best research methods and make sure their papers meet the highest standards and fact checking before publishing.

Physics requires that all supports be removed simultaneously in order for the buildings to reach free fall acceleration in the descent. WTC1 and WTC2 came very close to free fall acceleration as can be seen by comparing the descending collapse zone with the free falling beams in the same frame. WTC7 however did reach free fall acceleration for nearly 200 feet. This is confirmed by NIST. Physics is quite plain in showing that in order for any object to reach free fall acceleration, there must be nothing supporting it. The only method of simultaneously removing all 87 steel columns in WTC7 that I know of is explosives. Maybe it was 87 guys with steel cutters and walkie talkies but that doesn't seem too probable.

As for my beliefs, please note that I fully believed the Official Conspiracy Theory for many years even going so far as calling the FBI on suspicious (Arab) pilots. The process I went through pitting my emotions against cold hard logic was extremely difficult. Any "Truther" who, like me was born and raised in the United States and attended school here where we learn about how great our country is and how our government "of the people, by the people and for the people" is fully accountable for its actions, had and still has a terrible time reconciling these things. Please do not dismiss this. We were not influenced by our "beliefs".

As an architect, you could do well to check out Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth to see if their arguments pass the sniff test and read the names and qualifications of the more than 1600 architects and engineers who have signed their petition. If their arguments do not make sense from an architectural standpoint, I would really like to know.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:22 pm 
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BjornP wrote:
hondo69 wrote:
I could be wrong, but it seems to me the whole 9/11 conspiracy theory is not that different than the assassination of JFK at its core.

The reason most people, including me, don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman is that it is simply inconcieveable that such a puny, inconsequential man could change history in such a monumental way. No, history can only be altered by immense forces that are nearly unstoppable at that moment in time.

Equally puzzling is the notion that some lunatic hiding in a cave could direct a small group of rag tag terrorists to bring down the towers. With box cutters no less. Nope, not a realistic scenario at all, just doesn't seem viable. It doesn't even pass the smell test. Or put another way, my brain just refuses to process that information.


In other words, conspiracy theorists exists because they cannot, even on an intellectual level, imagine anyone changing the world around them without them holding an equal amount of power to the targetted party or institution (JFK/9-11, etc.)?

Which is also the reason they keep existing, I'd imagine. People like that will have so little faith in their own ability to change the world around them, they rather imagine fantastically powerful forces arrained against them, than actually trying.


+1

Just about every major event in american history has a Conspiracy Theory behind it. It's psychological, people can't fathom the fact that anyone or group could successfully attack the very authority they respect or even fear for almost their entire lives. If John Hinckley jr. had successfully killed Reagan there would be conspiracy theories out the wazoo, the same applies in the event that the Times Square car bomb had successfully detonated, or the underwear bomber had succeeded.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Witten wrote:
+1

Just about every major event in american history has a Conspiracy Theory behind it. It's psychological, people can't fathom the fact that anyone or group could successfully attack the very authority they respect or even fear for almost their entire lives. If John Hinckley jr. had successfully killed Reagan there would be conspiracy theories out the wazoo, the same applies in the event that the Times Square car bomb had successfully detonated, or the underwear bomber had succeeded.


Seems rather condescending. While I'm sure that's true in some cases, there are tons of true conspiracies and "Conspiracy Theories." The plot to assassinate Abraham Lincoln; Iraq's supposed WMD stash, medical experimentation on black Americans, the Business Plot, the Scientologists spying on the US government, Iran-Contra, Watergate, etc. It's quite clear that there was also a conspiracy by factions of the US government to discredit Martin Luther King, and attempts at making him commit suicide.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:31 pm 
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The Road Rascal wrote:
Witten wrote:
+1

Just about every major event in american history has a Conspiracy Theory behind it. It's psychological, people can't fathom the fact that anyone or group could successfully attack the very authority they respect or even fear for almost their entire lives. If John Hinckley jr. had successfully killed Reagan there would be conspiracy theories out the wazoo, the same applies in the event that the Times Square car bomb had successfully detonated, or the underwear bomber had succeeded.


Seems rather condescending. While I'm sure that's true in some cases, there are tons of true conspiracies and "Conspiracy Theories." The plot to assassinate Abraham Lincoln; Iraq's supposed WMD stash, medical experimentation on black Americans, the Business Plot, the Scientologists spying on the US government, Iran-Contra, Watergate, etc. It's quite clear that there was also a conspiracy by factions of the US government to discredit Martin Luther King, and attempts at making him commit suicide.


Of course, i even bring up some of these more proven government conspiracies in my previous posts, as examples in comparison to that of 9/11 conspiracy theories. My point was mostly aimed towards conspiracy theories about events like Pearl Harbor or 9/11, which involve large scale attacks on the U.S. population.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:36 pm 
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... and again, as I pointed out, the shooting down of conspiracies that you don't want to believe, while maintaining others that you do is just cherry picking. The attack on Pearl should have been expected, whether it was or not, just as the attack on 9-11 should have been. There was ample proof in both cases that an attack was in the offing. Either the government chose to ignore this proof, or it decided that an attack was just the thing needed and then pretended to ignore it. In either case, there are actors that should be held accountable.

....the difference is that in the case of 9-11 the bad actors in government have never been held accountable. Why is that?

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:18 am 
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RAnthony wrote:
....the difference is that in the case of 9-11 the bad actors in government have never been held accountable. Why is that?
Been wondering the same thing myself.

Maybe it's because we expect government to be inept, rudderless and contradictory in nature. In other words it just comes with the territory. I really have no other explanation because I can list hundreds upon hundreds of bad actors over the past decade that have gotten off scott free.

Take something relatively easy to prove in a court of law like Solyndra. We're talking about a mega-million dollar scam. Dozens of people will end up behind bars, right? Not a chance. Those same people that have been busting my ass for years should end up busting rocks, but they'll probably get a promotion instead.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Oh for fucks sake.

STOP MISTAKING INCOMPETENCE FOR MALEVOLENCE



Provide evidence or give it up.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:55 pm 
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The Mad Zeppelineer wrote:
Oh for fucks sake.

STOP MISTAKING INCOMPETENCE FOR MALEVOLENCE



Provide evidence or give it up.
Incompetence is also actionable, from a prosecution standpoint. Why hasn't this occurred? We have time to close down kids lemonade stands and raid raw milk producers, but we don't have the ability to hold our government accountable for 9-11? Hold the banks accountable for the financial meltdown? Priorities. We need to set some. Plenty of evidence of actionable incompetence on both counts, if we simply had the will to press for charges.

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"So who the fuck are you RAnthony? Are you anything like the people you don't respond to say you are?"


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:29 pm 
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The Mad Zeppelineer wrote:
Oh for fucks sake.

STOP MISTAKING INCOMPETENCE FOR MALEVOLENCE



Provide evidence or give it up.



I'm sorry, but did you not read my posts?

Dan
Jeffersonville, NY

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:38 pm 
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ddesmond1969 wrote:
I'm sorry, but did you not read my posts?
This is the problem with most believers. The need to prove their already held beliefs causes them to search out and highlight anomalous data (like the door sensor) and present it as proof; when in fact it is nothing more than that. Anomalous data. All that proves is more research is required.

Proof, in the case of 9-11, would be modeling for 7 that showed a different kind of failure than occurred, based on the known real contents and structure of that building. Confessions of remote control operators. Documentation of any kind outlining this very involved operation. None of this kind of proof even remotely exists.

...it just didn't happen the way you want to believe.

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"So who the fuck are you RAnthony? Are you anything like the people you don't respond to say you are?"


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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:39 pm 
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[/quote]This is the problem with most believers. The need to prove their already held beliefs causes them to search out and highlight anomalous data (like the door sensor) and present it as proof; when in fact it is nothing more than that. Anomalous data. All that proves is more research is required.

Proof, in the case of 9-11, would be modeling for 7 that showed a different kind of failure than occurred, based on the known real contents and structure of that building. Confessions of remote control operators. Documentation of any kind outlining this very involved operation. None of this kind of proof even remotely exists.

...it just didn't happen the way you want to believe.[/quote]


This is he first time someone has mentioned any evidence I site before they dismiss me. Thanks. Now, the door sensor may be anomalous data but it fits everything else when seen in the context that the planes likely were not hijacked from inside the planes themselves, but rather from the ground.

Allowing a slow moving airplane to enter the most heavily guarded airspace in the world and descend more than 7,000 feet over a span of three minutes before crashing into the most heavily protected building in the world more than 30 minutes after the entire world knew the US was under attack is not anomalous data.

NIST refuses to show its modeling for WTC 7 citing national security. For all we know it shows the only way failure could occur was with explosions. When I find a remote control operator who is willing to sign a confession, I'll send it to you immediately.

And please understand, if you read my previous posts you would know this is not what I want to believe.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:56 pm 
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ddesmond1969 wrote:
This is he first time someone has mentioned any evidence I site before they dismiss me. Thanks. Now, the door sensor may be anomalous data but it fits everything else when seen in the context that the planes likely were not hijacked from inside the planes themselves, but rather from the ground. What about the mountains of evidence that the planes were hijacked by terrorists? Why is that dismissed when flimsy nothings are promoted to "hard evidence"?

Allowing a slow moving airplane to enter the most heavily guarded airspace CURRENTLY heavily guarded. It was not at the time. in the world and descend more than 7,000 feet over a span of three minutes before crashing into the most heavily protected building in the world more than 30 minutes after the entire world knew the US was under attack is not anomalous data. No, its just what happened.

NIST refuses to show its modeling for WTC 7 citing national security. For all we know it shows the only way failure could occur was with explosions. For all we know it said the only logical culprit was the Easter Bunny. When I find a remote control operator who is willing to sign a confession, I'll send it to you immediately. That would be interesting evidence...But alas. Nothing.

And please understand, if you read my previous posts you would know this is not what I want to believe. I don't think you are stupid. Just suggestible. And you probably do want to believe it, maybe subconsciously. My theory is that conspiracy theorist are mostly non-religious people with religious sensibilities. They want to believe in a higher power. They have ruled out god, so they believe in the all powerful government. A government not ruled by men, but by sinister super-competent agents of evil.


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