NDAA and our military veterans

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NDAA and our military veterans

Postby samsmart » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:14 am

So I have a theory about the passage of NDAA 2012 and I would like to know what everyone else here thinks about it.

Remember that in 2009 the Department of Homeland Security had issued a report that warned that law enforcement agencies should be worried about returning veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan. The report warned that returning war veterans were likely to be targeted by white supremacists and right-wing anti-government groups. The reason for this is because they are already trained in military tactics and military weapons use. The report says that the return of veterans could lead to an emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks.

Remember also that conservative pundits lambasted DHS Secretary Napolitano for issuing the report and specifically targeting the right-wing and for being suspicious of U.S. veterans. Because of the backlash from conservative media the DHS apologized and backed off this track.

Two years later and the Occupy Wall Street movement happened. The Occupy movement is considered a left-wing populist movement. It's been rather far-reaching in nature with the "occupation" of various cities.

At an Occupy Wall Street march through Times Square on October 15, 2011, police were getting ready to break up the march when they were confronted by Shamar Thomas, a veteran of the Marine Corps, who was recorded on video exclaiming to the police that "there is no honor in this," referring to the police preparing to confront the marchers with force.

After this, the Occupy Marines was formed as a Facebook support page on October 24, 2011, as a network for Marine Corps veterans who support the OWS movement.

At Occupy Oakland on October 25, 2011, Scott Olsen was hit in the head by a projectile that witnesses claimed was either a tear gas or smoke canister that was fired by police trying to break up the protesters.

So these events show that among the left-wing populist movement that is OWS there are supporters in the U.S. military, especially in the Marine Corps.

Two months later on December 18, 2011, the last of the U.S. troops in Iraq withdrew to Kuwait. The is because the Iraqi government refused to re-authorize the Status of Forces Agreement that detailed legal protections for U.S. troops operating in Iraq. What this implies is a reduction of troops from Iraq, and possibly from serving at all, leading to the discharge of a large number of troops.

Now let's take a look at what the troops are coming home to: a horrible economy,, extremely high unemployment, and limited job opportunities. This past weekend there was a news blurb about how veterans are suffering from a 10% unemployment rate.

The U.S. Congress is also gridlocked over whether to provide important social services to American citizens. These are social services that even veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan could take advantage of.

Now, to be fair, the Department of Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs have their own separate social programs for our veterans. Veterans need to take advantage of these programs to help them cope with life outside the military and any of the psychological traumas that may be suffering from because of their service. And I know that veterans are almost being pressured to report issues such as PTSD so they can get help.

Even so, veterans are still affected by the poor economy. Even if a veteran himself is unaffected his friends and family may be affected, which will then affect him. And it may affect him to take action of some kind.

Now let's take a look at all these things.

The Department of Homeland Security was concerned about veterans getting involved in right-wing extremist groups. The police in many areas have been charged to break up the protesters of the Occupy Wall Street movement, which many consider left-wing and has gotten the support from numbers of veterans. So there are numbers of veterans from both the right and the left who oppose the current government establishment.

And now we have the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012. There are provisions in this act which mandates that the entire world be considered a battlefield and gives the President and his executive agencies the authority to use the military to detain indefinitely American citizens suspected of terrorism. This bill was passed by both Republican and Democratic politicians.

So what do you think is the likelihood that the federal government is passing NDAA 2012 with these provisions in order to use the military to detain vocal military veterans who are members of political groups, those considered right-wing and those considered left-wing, protesting the government, its stances, and its policies since these veterans have military training and thus could be seen as a security, and possibly even a terrorist, threat to the United States?
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby Kazon Nystrøm » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:04 am

I don't think its the main reason, but I do think it will come into play. Its not without precedent-

White Mountain scouts served with Company B under Lieutenant Charles B. Gatewood from Fort Apache in 1885 to 1886. General George Crook had high praise for this group which is composed of several bands. "Chiricahuas were the most subordinate, energetic, untiring and, by odds, the most efficient of their command." These scouts were sent to Florida by General Miles, along with those who they tracked for sixteen months in 1885 and 1886, as if these Apache scouts were hostiles to be punished. They were kept captive under nominal arrest as prisoners of war, along with the rest of Geronimo's band whom they'd helped the army track down, for twenty-six years before finally being released.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Scouts
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby raistian77 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:56 pm

It's the fear that "Frankenstein's monster" might come back to harm them.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby navy62802 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:39 pm

Of course, there was also the Bonus Army ... a very dark time in US history.

Bonus Army

The Business Plot allegedly tried to take advantage of these protesting veterans in a fascist coup attempt to be led by 2-time MOH winner General Smedley Butler.

Business Plot
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby NickDupree » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:11 pm

Bradley Manning: indefinite detention in action, right now.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby DBTrek » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:31 pm

NickDupree wrote:Bradley Manning: indefinite detention in action, right now.



Lucky him.

Turning over monumental portions of classified data to the enemy during wartime operations used to result in death.
He should be thanking his jailers every second his miserable life is allowed to continue.

John Andre and Thomas Hickey weren't so lucky under Gen Washington.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby Smitty-48 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:35 pm

Double post
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby kabuki » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:57 pm

samsmart wrote:So I have a theory about the passage of NDAA 2012 and I would like to know what everyone else here thinks about it.

Remember that in 2009 the Department of Homeland Security had issued a report that warned that law enforcement agencies should be worried about returning veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan. The report warned that returning war veterans were likely to be targeted by white supremacists and right-wing anti-government groups. The reason for this is because they are already trained in military tactics and military weapons use. The report says that the return of veterans could lead to an emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks.

Remember also that conservative pundits lambasted DHS Secretary Napolitano for issuing the report and specifically targeting the right-wing and for being suspicious of U.S. veterans. Because of the backlash from conservative media the DHS apologized and backed off this track.

Two years later and the Occupy Wall Street movement happened. The Occupy movement is considered a left-wing populist movement. It's been rather far-reaching in nature with the "occupation" of various cities.

At an Occupy Wall Street march through Times Square on October 15, 2011, police were getting ready to break up the march when they were confronted by Shamar Thomas, a veteran of the Marine Corps, who was recorded on video exclaiming to the police that "there is no honor in this," referring to the police preparing to confront the marchers with force.

After this, the Occupy Marines was formed as a Facebook support page on October 24, 2011, as a network for Marine Corps veterans who support the OWS movement.

At Occupy Oakland on October 25, 2011, Scott Olsen was hit in the head by a projectile that witnesses claimed was either a tear gas or smoke canister that was fired by police trying to break up the protesters.

So these events show that among the left-wing populist movement that is OWS there are supporters in the U.S. military, especially in the Marine Corps.

Two months later on December 18, 2011, the last of the U.S. troops in Iraq withdrew to Kuwait. The is because the Iraqi government refused to re-authorize the Status of Forces Agreement that detailed legal protections for U.S. troops operating in Iraq. What this implies is a reduction of troops from Iraq, and possibly from serving at all, leading to the discharge of a large number of troops.

Now let's take a look at what the troops are coming home to: a horrible economy,, extremely high unemployment, and limited job opportunities. This past weekend there was a news blurb about how veterans are suffering from a 10% unemployment rate.

The U.S. Congress is also gridlocked over whether to provide important social services to American citizens. These are social services that even veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan could take advantage of.

Now, to be fair, the Department of Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs have their own separate social programs for our veterans. Veterans need to take advantage of these programs to help them cope with life outside the military and any of the psychological traumas that may be suffering from because of their service. And I know that veterans are almost being pressured to report issues such as PTSD so they can get help.

Even so, veterans are still affected by the poor economy. Even if a veteran himself is unaffected his friends and family may be affected, which will then affect him. And it may affect him to take action of some kind.

Now let's take a look at all these things.

The Department of Homeland Security was concerned about veterans getting involved in right-wing extremist groups. The police in many areas have been charged to break up the protesters of the Occupy Wall Street movement, which many consider left-wing and has gotten the support from numbers of veterans. So there are numbers of veterans from both the right and the left who oppose the current government establishment.

And now we have the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012. There are provisions in this act which mandates that the entire world be considered a battlefield and gives the President and his executive agencies the authority to use the military to detain indefinitely American citizens suspected of terrorism. This bill was passed by both Republican and Democratic politicians.

So what do you think is the likelihood that the federal government is passing NDAA 2012 with these provisions in order to use the military to detain vocal military veterans who are members of political groups, those considered right-wing and those considered left-wing, protesting the government, its stances, and its policies since these veterans have military training and thus could be seen as a security, and possibly even a terrorist, threat to the United States?



Its not like they are being demobilized. We will always need a large standing military to occupy the rest of the world.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:33 pm

DBTrek wrote:
NickDupree wrote:Bradley Manning: indefinite detention in action, right now.



Lucky him.

Turning over monumental portions of classified data to the enemy during wartime operations used to result in death.
He should be thanking his jailers every second his miserable life is allowed to continue.

John Andre and Thomas Hickey weren't so lucky under Gen Washington.



Traitors typically get a life sentence because they offer some benefit to the United States government. They agree to be sources and to provide information at any hour to government agents for the rest of their lives. They also represent a goodwill gesture to our enemies who had people who betrayed tyrannies to Americans locked in their own prisons. We don't kill our traitors, and they hopefully won't kill their own. Of course, it really didn't work out that way.

But Manning offers the United States government no conceivable value. He betrayed the United States to nameless and faceless enemies. Those enemies torture and murder anybody they suspect of dealings with the United States. Nor does his detention affect Wikileaks' decisions to publish future intelligence.

The kid committed the gravest offense possible and he has nothing to offer in exchange for leniency. That the government does not seem intent upon seeking the death penalty is a measure of benevolence more than anything else. They don't have to refrain from seeking it. They don't gain anything by not seeking it.

When Pollard was captured, we saw the same kind of confusing mix of loyalties and values come to play in his supporters. They could not disentangle their love for his cause with his duties as an American citizen and intelligence analyst. This Manning trial is like the Pollard case on steroids.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby navy62802 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:52 pm

I really have a huge problem with DOD budgeting. I really do. Instead of cutting a program like the failed JSF (aka the F-35) which has been "in development" for two decades, the military chooses to cut thousands of sailors out of the navy via enlisted review boards. While the Air Force cuts a few hundred Captains and Majors. I don't know what the Army did to cut their ranks, but Jesus!!! Meanwhile, defense appropriations decides to continue funding both the F-22 and the F-35. The F-22 isn't even combat fucking capable after 30 years of "development." The F-35 isn't combat capable after 20 years of development. Every time a ship is built, it's over budget. Hell, the new Littoral Combat Ship the Navy procured was two times its original budget. Not to mention the San Antonio class amphibious ships. Let me tell you, there are plenty of places the DOD could cut before it moves to manpower. But it refuses to do so because of the people we have elected to Congress. Those people have allowed defense contractors to spread their manufacturing base across all 50 states. So when they go and try to cut a specific program like the F-35 for instance, there's intense opposition from the entire Congress. So, they overspend on unnecessary projects in the name of maintaining jobs in their districts which produce nothing at the expense of cutting men and women from the armed forces who actually provide a valuable service. I tell you, it must really be difficult maintaining a defensive force against an illusory enemy. Heaven forbid we actually went to war. that would cost hundreds of trillions.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby raistian77 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:28 pm

NickDupree wrote:Bradley Manning: indefinite detention in action, right now.



Manning really would be a bad example. As a solider you do waive certain rights and agree to a much harsher legal system.


What Manning did was illegal and was wrong, but it gave the rest of the US a idea of what war really is like, it's fucking ugly. I live in a military town, served for 4 years and still have family and friends that are in. The stuff I have seen brought back, videos and pictures would turn your hair white and make you eyes fall out. Tons of guys do what Manning did but show it to friends and family and not wikileaks.

A former friend showed me a video one time of two women walking through a zone that the military declared 'no movement' the vid is of their group shooting the women with no warning. The trigger man is laughing and makes the comment "Stupid bitches, next time they will know better". Constant state of war has a nasty way of eroding the humanity out of anyone.

The soldiers that believe that the fighting is coming to a end will probably get a nasty shock as Obama launches the next theater in Iran. The MIC will get more money, the politicians will get elected on the 'tough on terror' platform and the unemployment rate will go down as new blood rushes to the recruiting stations to replace our dead or worn out warriors. Americas never ending war on everyone will continue.

The NDAA will make sure that upset citizens keep their traps shut and think twice before protesting as protesting is now a form of terrorism.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:57 pm

Manning didn't just publish pictures and videos. That is a HUGE act of misdirection on some peoples' parts. He handed over classified intelligence ultimately to our enemies. That is treason.

Just leaking gunship video footage is a leak. He is not facing a lifetime in the detention barracks or a federal prison because of the gunship footage.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby Smitty-48 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:17 pm

Seems to be some Schizophrenia going around, because one minute folks are calling the US government "fascist" and talking about how it has to be brought down, along with the "The wars are a conspiracy of the oil companies and Wall St." right before they accuse Manning of being a traitor and say he should be hung from a lamp post. Derp.

Now, I realize that from a military pov, breaking your oath is a serious thing, but to the civies that is a ridiculous anachronism and "being a stooge of the MIC".

One minute people are chirping like Manning, next minute they want to kill the guy.

Make up your minds. Is you in, or is you out? Are you with the anarchists and the bolshies, or are you with the government?

How a JNCO gets access to all this stuff is beyond me anyways. The freak out seems to be a smoke screen to deflect from the incompetence of the CoC.

I mean; "need to know" people. Why does a Corporal need to know this stuff?

I don't go off with the OWS anarcho-bolshies one minute, and then come running back to QEII the next and even if I don't agree with them, I'm not calling for them to be killed.



Manning is an OWS poster boy, ffs. Fucking OWS blubberer DSL calling me a fascist, before he pounces on manning for this shit? What a fuck-tool.

If you are going to pull out hardcore military discipline, then you don't go wailing down in the park with the Hippies, Anarchists and Bolsheviks.

Hardcore military discipline? You fucking stand with the CinC and the CoC. Serving, or retired, doesn't make a difference.

At least Nick is consistent. OWS includes Bradley Manning. Don't try to compartmentalize so you can get up on your military justice high horse, all of a sudden.

Complaining about pepper spray as "tortuous brutality" but you are fine with the way they treat this kid? Pfft. What a twat. That's a fuckin' joke. Hypocrisy.

"Overthrow the plutocrats"? It's the plutocrats that want to hang this kid to shut him up.

If the Corporal is on the dock, I want to see the OC and the CO right beside him, cause they revoked his duty status, and then failed to ensure that his Security clearance was revoked as well.

People calling me a fascist, and then they want to drop the hammer on some corporal, all by his lonesome, from a very great height?
Last edited by Smitty-48 on Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby NickDupree » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:10 am

My point is, Manning is held indefinitely without trial. Try him and sentence him already if he's so guilty, try him and hang him George Washington style if you want, but even George gave traitors a quick "drumhead trial." Manning doesn't even get that. Complete the process already. Rule of law. Do something, or get off the pot. Indefinite detention without trial is wrong.
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Re: NDAA and our military veterans

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:15 am

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