Iranian Nuclear Progress?

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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby navy62802 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:45 pm

WCMeyer wrote:2012 should rightly be the end of the 'commonly accepted' world, meaning this insane economic tight-rope act that most of the first-world countries have been performing.

Let's grind it to a screeching halt, and prove the Mayan's right.

I would argue that the "commonly accepted" economic world ended with the beginning of the housing/financial crisis in 2007. Right now, we sort of exist in an economic oz of untold surprises. Eventually, we'll wander out of Oz, but for the time being, we are stuck here with only central bank action and computer algorithms driving our trading markets.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby navy62802 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:40 pm

Dr. Strangelove wrote:It's predictable. All these economic debacles were 100% predicted. A black swan event must be unpredicted by prior probability. It's impact must be a game changer. But a black swan event is not just anything that changes our paradigm. It is something we did not anticipate because we did not understand the true probability of it occurring. Only in hindsight will such an event make any sense to us.

I call it a "black swan" event because the American public would be blindsided. They generally have no clue how bombing Iran would impact their personal lives. Only in the aftermath, when they're paying inflated prices for fuel and food will they realize the folly of their decisions. And that's what it takes ... enduring the hardship of your decisions. No longer would we be able to send battalions to Iraq without consequence. The consequences would be steep and immediate. When fuel and food double in price, it kills economic growth. For nations already on the edge of default, it would simply push them over. Stronger economies may survive, but they would be severely crippled. In the end, we would all pay the price. But I would derive tremendous personal satisfaction out of seeing the hardline Christians and others who support this bullshit being unable to feed their families ... as a direct result of their support for war against Iran. It would be immensely gratifying.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby doc_loliday » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:46 pm

As "satisfying" as it would be for a relatively small amount of people to eat their words, I think I'd still prefer the option that doesn't include millions of innocent dying and possible world war 3.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby navy62802 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:55 pm

doc_loliday wrote:As "satisfying" as it would be for a relatively small amount of people to eat their words, I think I'd still prefer the option that doesn't include millions of innocent dying and possible world war 3.

I have interacted with Iranian sailors on multiple occasions throughout my naval career. For the most part, they are innocent people who know nothing about what their government does ... trying to make a living as best they can. I understand what is going to happen if you drop bombs on Tehran. Innocent people are going to die. But when it comes to the American public, they have no conception of what this means. To them, everyone in Iran is a terrorist ... there are no innocent civilians. It's a sad and tragic fact. And when it comes time to make the final decision about whether or not to bomb Iran, the innocent father, the innocent mother are not going to be a blip on the voters' radar. We've been programmed to view other countries this way ... black and white. The reality is that they're not black and white. Especially in the middle east, where regimes rule by fear and intimidation and the populace is sparse. Americans don't have a full comprehension of the power Iran holds by watching over the gateway to the Arabian Gulf. And it is this ignorance for which they will pay dearly. I don't hope for the slaughter of innocent civilians. What I want is for the public to bear the consequences of its votes. I want people to experience the consequences of their lack of civic responsibility on a personal level. If that could happen without bombing Iran, then great.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby doc_loliday » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:08 pm

I think you underestimate how many Americans want a war with Iran, and which Americans are going to be harmed by this action. Who will be most affected? Those struggling to get by? The salt of the earth type? Probably. I think a lot of people really, really don't want this war. The ones that do perhaps are in more of a position to weather the bad times. That's a sweeping generalization, but you said so yourself, although out of contempt for hawks, your preference for war.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby navy62802 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:21 pm

doc_loliday wrote:I think you underestimate how many Americans want a war with Iran, and which Americans are going to be harmed by this action. Who will be most affected? Those struggling to get by? The salt of the earth type? Probably. I think a lot of people really, really don't want this war. The ones that do perhaps are in more of a position to weather the bad times. That's a sweeping generalization, but you said so yourself, although out of contempt for hawks, your preference for war.

Well, I think that ultimately it's the lobbies that are pushing this. Certainly there are some ignorant Americans who want it, but at the end of the day, I think it's the lobbyists who are pushing this the most. And ultimately, that comes back on the voter. Do they want lobbyists? Do they see the impact that lobbying has on legislation? Do they see the impact that lobbying has on their personal lives? Well, they're about to find out. They put into office politicians who readily accepted lobbying money. And those politicians voted the way the lobbyists wanted them to vote. Now, we all get to endure the consequences.

Again ... what I'm really looking for here is for the voter to endure some hardship, some loss as a result of his/her vote at the poll. I want the voter to have to endure pain and suffering because he/she voted for the wrong person. It's a lesson that has been lost on an entire generation. And I think this Iran situation is a perfect opportunity for the American voter to realize that when you make a bad decision at the poll, you will pay for it on a personal level. It's a unique opportunity. Usually, the choices that voters make have no consequence. You will always get raped financially, etc. But at long last, we have a situation where if the politicians vote the wrong way, voters will be paying double for regular unleaded. Paying double for food. I think it's high time that the voters bore the immediate consequences of their vote.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby Penner » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:34 pm

navy62802 wrote:Again ... what I'm really looking for here is for the voter to endure some hardship, some loss as a result of his/her vote at the poll. I want the voter to have to endure pain and suffering because he/she voted for the wrong person. It's a lesson that has been lost on an entire generation. And I think this Iran situation is a perfect opportunity for the American voter to realize that when you make a bad decision at the poll, you will pay for it on a personal level. It's a unique opportunity. Usually, the choices that voters make have no consequence. You will always get raped financially, etc. But at long last, we have a situation where if the politicians vote the wrong way, voters will be paying double for regular unleaded. Paying double for food. I think it's high time that the voters bore the immediate consequences of their vote.


I wouldn't wish for somebody to go through hell so they can learn a lesson (especially a political lesson). There are many different ways people can learn a lesson, without going through hell. It just takes time and patience (for both sides). Truthful, a lot of Americans are afraid of Iran but the American public does not want to go to war with Iran. Plus, we already went through (and still are currently) going through the hardship of the re-electing of George W. Bush. That guy gave the rich massive tax breaks and got us in Iraq under false pretenses. In addition, he was president when the economy went south and he was the one how bailed out Wall Street with no strings attach (yes, Obama bailed out the Auto Industry but at least he made them to commit to his terms).
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby TheAmericanNomad » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:38 pm

navy62802 wrote:
doc_loliday wrote:Unfortunately, there are a lot of regular folks mixed with the few 'nuke everyone' that disagrees with me' crowd. Whatever, bomb them too, I guess.

Those are the idiots who will pay the most if we do, indeed, bomb Iran. They are the ones who will be unable to afford $10 gasoline. They are the ones who will not be able to afford food prices which double overnight. And it is these people I will be happy to watch suffer. I want to see them go hungry because they supported the murder of innocent Iranians.

To be clear, I don't personally support action against Iran. First of all, I don't believe the "intelligence" claiming that they are close to a nuclear weapon. Secondly, even if they were, I don't give two shits ... they can't deliver a nuclear weapon to a US territory. And lastly, it is inevitable that Iran will acquire the ability to produce nuclear weapons, bombing or no bombing.

But bomb away! If there's one way to ensure the collapse of the European economy, bombing Iran is the way to do it. Hell, it might even collapse the US economy. But there's only one way to find out ...

:popcorn:




You know, that is all well and good, but not everyone who can't afford 10 dollar gas and 2x food prices supports going to war with Iran.


You are the worst kind of person, you want death and suffering for millions and millions of people just out of spite. You are just as bad as all the war mongers and you can go fuck yourself.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby navy62802 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:42 pm

Penner wrote:I wouldn't wish for somebody to go through hell so they can learn a lesson (especially a political lesson). There are many different ways people can learn a lesson, without going through hell. It just takes time and patience (for both sides). Truthful, a lot of Americans are afraid of Iran but the American public does not want to go to war with Iran. Plus, we already went through (and still are currently) going through the hardship of the re-electing of George W. Bush. That guy gave the rich massive tax breaks and got us in Iraq under false pretenses. In addition, he was president when the economy went south and he was the one how bailed out Wall Street with no strings attach (yes, Obama bailed out the Auto Industry but at least he made them to commit to his terms).

The American public requires pain in order to learn a lesson. You support a Christian candidate who wants to bomb the fuck out of Iran? OK, good on you. Well, now you get to pay $10 for a gallon of gas. Such consequences are lost on modern American voters. I wish that it didn't involve other people. I wish that our electorate were informed enough to realize this on their own. But they aren't. They watch CNN and Fox, and that's where they get their "informed" opinions. Voters need to be confronted with an immediate and severe penalty for voting for an idiot. I fear they are about to get it.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby navy62802 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:47 pm

TheAmericanNomad wrote:You know, that is all well and good, but not everyone who can't afford 10 dollar gas and 2x food prices supports going to war with Iran.


You are the worst kind of person, you want death and suffering for millions and millions of people just out of spite. You are just as bad as all the war mongers and you can go fuck yourself.

Eh. I'll be the one out there doing the fighting on those ships. So, I don't really care. I do what I'm ordered. I see that war with Iran is an inevitability, and I don't really care when it happens. I pay the toll for voters' decisions. Usually, the voters don't have to endure the consequences of their vote. Only I and a few hundred thousand fighting men and women do. But in this unique instance, the voters are going to pay a steep price while I'm out there absorbing missiles. So, enjoy the consequences of your vote! Bomb away!!

:popcorn:
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby TheAmericanNomad » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:02 pm

War with Iran = Draft I figure.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby navy62802 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:06 pm

TheAmericanNomad wrote:War with Iran = Draft I figure.

You will only have war with Iran as long as you vote for idiots.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby TheAmericanNomad » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:11 pm

Its not like there is anyone else to vote for. I'll vote for Ron Paul, warts and all, simply because he is the only anti-war candidate, but besides that, no one.

I understand your frustration about the American public, and I apologize for telling you to go fuck yourself, but you have to understand that there are a LOT of people who do not want to go to war with Iran, including many of your fellow servicemen and women, and so wishing that we would just so you can prove a point to idiots isn't really a moral position to take. People will die, at home and in Iran, innocent Iranian citizens will be killed while we send our servicemen into yet another death trap for profits.


The only good I can see coming out of a war with Iran would be a possible crazy huge anti-war crowd. Especially if the war comes under Obama.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby Penner » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:25 pm

navy62802 wrote:The American public requires pain in order to learn a lesson. You support a Christian candidate who wants to bomb the fuck out of Iran? OK, good on you. Well, now you get to pay $10 for a gallon of gas. Such consequences are lost on modern American voters. I wish that it didn't involve other people. I wish that our electorate were informed enough to realize this on their own. But they aren't. They watch CNN and Fox, and that's where they get their "informed" opinions. Voters need to be confronted with an immediate and severe penalty for voting for an idiot. I fear they are about to get it.


Pain is not the only motivator for the American public, if you teach Americans that going to war with Iran will cost them, then they will listen. A lot of Americans do not want war with Iran (nor do I) and gas prices have already went up because Iran threaten to block the Straight of Hormuz over sanctions. The only reason why the sanctions never went in place was because Russia and China veto them.

(currently I am paying something like $3.59 a gallon, where I live, but it feels like $10.00 a gallon).

Most Americans (including myself) do not want to go to war with Iran nor does the Iranian public.
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Re: Iranian Nuclear Progress?

Postby navy62802 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:36 pm

Penner wrote:Pain is not the only motivator for the American public, if you teach Americans that going to war with Iran will cost them, then they will listen.
Yes, I definitely agree with that statement. The problem is that our elected political leaders don't do this. They don't push for the education of the public. They hide the implications of such a thing. And instead, they push for this like it's an existential threat, consequences be damned. The thought is that if you oppose a strike on Iran then you're un-American. Well, that's not true. Those of us who do not want to strike Iran are simply pragmatic. We do not want to implode the American or European economies. We want peace. We want to live our lives in peace ... raise our kids in an environment of peace and prosperity. But the politicians we've voted into office are the very same politicians who are trying to convince us that war is the best and only option. Until voters realize that it is their vote that counts, they will continue to vote for irrational politicians who don't care what they pay for a gallon of gasoline.
Penner wrote:A lot of Americans do not want war with Iran (nor do I) and gas prices have already went up because Iran threaten to block the Straight of Hormuz over sanctions. The only reason why the sanctions never went in place was because Russia and China veto them.

(currently I am paying something like $3.59 a gallon, where I live, but it feels like $10.00 a gallon).

Most Americans (including myself) do not want to go to war with Iran nor does the Iranian public.

I don't want war with Iran. But that's where we're headed because of the people we've voted into office. I don't want to pay $10 for a gallon of gas. But that's where this policy is going to lead us. I don't want to pay $8 for a head of broccoli, but that's where we're headed with this policy. It's not like this is news. War with Iran has been on the radar for at least a couple of decades. It's the voters' fault now. If you voted on bad information, then it's your fault, and you have only yourself to blame.

If you want something different, then you should try to inform your fellow voters in some way. Otherwise, you will end up with the same old BS from the same old candidates ... duping the public into supporting their crazy ass policies.
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