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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:06 am 
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Yeah, and in that way it would be a lot like the drug war. Unlike the drug war however, hackers have the ability to fight back.

How does the public support for this war go once the power grid gets taken down for the fifth time?

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:15 am 
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TheAmericanNomad wrote:
Yeah, and in that way it would be a lot like the drug war. Unlike the drug war however, hackers have the ability to fight back.

How does the public support for this war go once the power grid gets taken down for the fifth time?


If it goes down, the government took it down.

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:17 am 
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TheAmericanNomad wrote:
Yeah, and in that way it would be a lot like the drug war. Unlike the drug war however, hackers have the ability to fight back.

How does the public support for this war go once the power grid gets taken down for the fifth time?

How does the public support go when the FBI finds a dude with a truck full of fertilizer and diesel
Or some nut-job opens fire in a crowded place.
Or some dip-shit tries to blow his shoes up
They clamor for more protection. They demand something be done.

And that’s all assuming the hackers could really pull off the kind of stuff the NSA is claiming
Not saying it’s impossible, but I think it’s quite a bit harder to do then most would think.
The number of people who could actually pull it off is very low

DOS attacks, defacing websites, or tapping someone’s email is one thing; actually tapping into the control architecture of utility grids is a different game entirely

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:25 am 
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I wonder if it is even possible to turn it off without some kind of mechanical switch?

I don't think anon will do things to hurt the general public right now, but if they start rounding up suspected hackers and sending them to gitmo, I do fear what the reaction might be.

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:57 am 
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TheAmericanNomad wrote:
I wonder if it is even possible to turn it off without some kind of mechanical switch?

I don't think anon will do things to hurt the general public right now, but if they start rounding up suspected hackers and sending them to gitmo, I do fear what the reaction might be.

It’s possible, very hard, but possible.

Most of the stations and grids communicate back and fourth to keep the load balanced.
When more people start using up more electricity the plants got to up production, and the grids have to route the current in a way that it doesn’t overload any station or junction. And they do the reverse when demand goes down.
They have some leeway, but if thing go too far out of whack breakers start tripping and parts of the grid go black.

If you could interrupt or interfere with the communication between the grid stations and the plants; make them think there’s extra or less demand then there really is. You could trick them in to shutting down plants or throwing a switch that would cause an over or under current situation that’d cause all kinds of problems.

The trick is, the communication network is a stand alone grid; not something you could get to like a regular website. There are also redundancies and direct measurements of the loads, so any attack would have to be extremely sophisticated and would require extensive knowledge of the systems and procedures the different companies use.

So it’s possible to be done, but I don’t too many have the ability to pull it off.

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1.Prior attitude effect. Subjects who feel strongly about an issue—even when encouraged to be objective—will evaluate supportive arguments more favorably than contrary arguments.
2.Disconfirmation bias. Subjects will spend more time and cognitive resources denigrating contrary arguments than supportive arguments.
3.Confirmation bias. Subjects free to choose their information sources will seek out supportive rather than contrary sources.
4.Attitude polarization. Exposing subjects to an apparently balanced set of pro and con arguments will exaggerate their initial polarization.
5.Attitude strength effect. Subjects voicing stronger attitudes will be more prone to the above biases.
6.Sophistication effect. Politically knowledgeable subjects, because they possess greater ammunition with which to counter-argue incongruent facts and arguments, will be more prone to the above biases.

- Charles S. Taber & Milton Lodge - Motivated Skepticism in the Evaluation of Political Beliefs


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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:00 am 
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Hetairoi
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What about using the internetwork? Would using the internetwork let someone shut down the power gridlock?


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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:38 am 
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Galen120 wrote:

Won't work. The idea of Anonymous is just that. I don't know you, you don't know me, if you start asking questions, I know you're a cop.

At least from what I understand.

That's the way terrorist cells are supposed to work. Doesn't happen in reality. In reality, people talk, they know eachother, and there are ways to get things done if you have no morals (i.e. an intelligence agency).

I can imagine many ways to turn one of these guys and "incentivize" him to find a way to discover the fellow members of anon without being made as a cop....or his wife/kids/mom/sister gets tortured to death in a Syrian prison. I mean, if these anon guys threaten to take down civilization by dismantling the basic infrastructure of the power grid, water supply, energy pipelines, government communications, the financial system, etc....it becomes no holds barred.

John Yu already wrote the memo justifying, legally, how the government can torture an eight year old if that'll make his terrorist dad talk...so it's not like they haven't thought of this before.

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:56 am 
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Vox Contra wrote:
TheAmericanNomad wrote:
I wonder if it is even possible to turn it off without some kind of mechanical switch?

I don't think anon will do things to hurt the general public right now, but if they start rounding up suspected hackers and sending them to gitmo, I do fear what the reaction might be.

It’s possible, very hard, but possible.

Most of the stations and grids communicate back and fourth to keep the load balanced.
When more people start using up more electricity the plants got to up production, and the grids have to route the current in a way that it doesn’t overload any station or junction. And they do the reverse when demand goes down.
They have some leeway, but if thing go too far out of whack breakers start tripping and parts of the grid go black.

If you could interrupt or interfere with the communication between the grid stations and the plants; make them think there’s extra or less demand then there really is. You could trick them in to shutting down plants or throwing a switch that would cause an over or under current situation that’d cause all kinds of problems.

The trick is, the communication network is a stand alone grid; not something you could get to like a regular website. There are also redundancies and direct measurements of the loads, so any attack would have to be extremely sophisticated and would require extensive knowledge of the systems and procedures the different companies use.

So it’s possible to be done, but I don’t too many have the ability to pull it off.


+1

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:03 pm 
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I'm with Vox on this one, Anon's threat is over-stated. So far the big hits and breaches of government security haven't come from hackers like Anonymous, it's been from the old fashioned way; informants leaking info out onto sites like WikiLeaks. In such a large entity such as the government the threat's always been from within. If ever the grid does go down, it's going to be largely from the act of a disillusioned Government employee on the inside, not the sole work of teenagers in their bedrooms.

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Witten wrote:
I'm with Vox on this one, Anon's threat is over-stated. So far the big hits and breaches of government security haven't come from hackers like Anonymous, it's been from the old fashioned way; informants leaking info out onto sites like WikiLeaks. In such a large entity such as the government the threat's always been from within. If ever the grid does go down, it's going to be largely from the act of a disillusioned Government employee on the inside, not the sole work of teenagers in their bedrooms.


I don't think it is teenagers in their bedrooms. I'd be willing to bet most anon members are in their mid twenties to late 30s. Kids these days have everything handed to them on an electronic platter. Very little incentive for them to hack and program. The kids that grew up during the Pc explosion and had to find work arounds for fun back in the day and are now all grown up with an intricate knowledge of how computers work at their core, those are the ones with the true expertise. Most kids today couldn't enter a DOS prompt to save their life. Not to say I don't think there are talented young hackers today, I'm sure there are, but I think the stereotype of a 15 year old kid hacking and cracking along the web was more accurate 15 years ago. Now that kid is 30 and is politically aware.

But I do of course agree that the threat is overstated.

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:09 pm 
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This is the whole 2nd ammendment/gun lobby thing again...

The fed will not go after anon. They will track, regulate, and strangle the access and lives of the general populace. There really is no better path to 1984 than anonymous. Isolated incidents will be brushed off, but if they continue to pester the government at increasing levels, you can guarantee that will be the result.

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Here is the official message from Anonymous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkOXBNBb2ao

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Quasigriz wrote:
This is the whole 2nd ammendment/gun lobby thing again...

The fed will not go after anon. They will track, regulate, and strangle the access and lives of the general populace. There really is no better path to 1984 than anonymous. Isolated incidents will be brushed off, but if they continue to pester the government at increasing levels, you can guarentee that will be the result.



Eh, they'll only get noobs. The government is truly inept.

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:33 pm 
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boethius wrote:
Galen120 wrote:

Won't work. The idea of Anonymous is just that. I don't know you, you don't know me, if you start asking questions, I know you're a cop.

At least from what I understand.

That's the way terrorist cells are supposed to work. Doesn't happen in reality. In reality, people talk, they know eachother, and there are ways to get things done if you have no morals (i.e. an intelligence agency).

I can imagine many ways to turn one of these guys and "incentivize" him to find a way to discover the fellow members of anon without being made as a cop....or his wife/kids/mom/sister gets tortured to death in a Syrian prison. I mean, if these anon guys threaten to take down civilization by dismantling the basic infrastructure of the power grid, water supply, energy pipelines, government communications, the financial system, etc....it becomes no holds barred.

John Yu already wrote the memo justifying, legally, how the government can torture an eight year old if that'll make his terrorist dad talk...so it's not like they haven't thought of this before.



There maybe small pockets, but it's more of a nebulous cloud. It's also a very complicated structure of sub groups.

I'd love to write about this, but I could be targeted by both sides.

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 Post subject: Re: Government setting up a war with Anonymous?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:35 pm 
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TheAmericanNomad wrote:
Witten wrote:
I'm with Vox on this one, Anon's threat is over-stated. So far the big hits and breaches of government security haven't come from hackers like Anonymous, it's been from the old fashioned way; informants leaking info out onto sites like WikiLeaks. In such a large entity such as the government the threat's always been from within. If ever the grid does go down, it's going to be largely from the act of a disillusioned Government employee on the inside, not the sole work of teenagers in their bedrooms.


I don't think it is teenagers in their bedrooms. I'd be willing to bet most anon members are in their mid twenties to late 30s. Kids these days have everything handed to them on an electronic platter. Very little incentive for them to hack and program. The kids that grew up during the Pc explosion and had to find work arounds for fun back in the day and are now all grown up with an intricate knowledge of how computers work at their core, those are the ones with the true expertise. Most kids today couldn't enter a DOS prompt to save their life. Not to say I don't think there are talented young hackers today, I'm sure there are, but I think the stereotype of a 15 year old kid hacking and cracking along the web was more accurate 15 years ago. Now that kid is 30 and is politically aware.

But I do of course agree that the threat is overstated.



I agree.

there are also different levels of talent that Mainstream doesn't understand at all. Fucking morons couldn't explain their own ass to the public.

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