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 Post subject: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:58 am 
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I'm not referring to the conservatives on this forum, but the Fox watching, bread and butter conservatives. I mean, it seems like it has lots of things they would like.

1) It is a flat tax. They've been trying to figure out how to get one of these for years.
2) It is definitely pro business. It is a giant gift to the insurance industry.
3) It was pushed by a Dem, so all its faults aren't their problems.

I mean, I understand that they would have to be opposed to it just because they are the opposite of those who are for it, but to make it one of their main points? Why?


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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:41 am 
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Cadair wrote:
I'm not referring to the conservatives on this forum, but the Fox watching, bread and butter conservatives. I mean, it seems like it has lots of things they would like.

1) It is a flat tax. They've been trying to figure out how to get one of these for years.
2) It is definitely pro business. It is a giant gift to the insurance industry.
3) It was pushed by a Dem, so all its faults aren't their problems.

I mean, I understand that they would have to be opposed to it just because they are the opposite of those who are for it, but to make it one of their main points? Why?


viewtopic.php?p=405824#p405824

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:58 am 
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The Conservative wrote:
http://dancarlin.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?p=405824#p405824


The Conservative wrote:
... my insurance has gone up over 25% in 5 year (5% a year)... I don't know where insurance is cheaper?



So you showing you paycheck stub and stating that your insurance has gone up by your words for the last 5 years, so before this administration was even in office and 3 years before the ACA came into being, explains exactly what about why the conservatives hate the ACA?

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:19 am 
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Cadair wrote:
I mean, I understand that they would have to be opposed to it just because they are the opposite of those who are for it, but to make it one of their main points? Why?


The Republican Party's base responds to issues that are framed within a liberty/individualism context. This issue has been presented to them as "The federal government is requiring that you buy health insurance, and will punish you if you don't". The vast majority of this group reacts negatively to any issue that can be summed up with the opening sentence "The federal government is requiring that you..."

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:04 am 
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Screechy wrote:
The Republican Party's base responds to issues that are framed within a liberty/individualism context. This issue has been presented to them as "The federal government is requiring that you buy health insurance, and will punish you if you don't". The vast majority of this group reacts negatively to any issue that can be summed up with the opening sentence "The federal government is requiring that you..."


I would believe that if they didn't have their own issues where they would love to require people to do things. For example "the federal government is requiring that you only get married to people of the opposite gender." "The Federal Government is requiring you to pay the same tax rate no matter your income."

I get your general idea though. My examples are a bit different (the GOP would love it if you weren't required to pay any taxes, for example.) Basically they are against anything close or similar to a universal healthcare system. I just have a hard time seeing how we don't already have that by requiring ER rooms to treat everyone. We're just broke because we're requiring treatment but not funding.


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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:30 am 
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Cadair wrote:
Screechy wrote:
The Republican Party's base responds to issues that are framed within a liberty/individualism context. This issue has been presented to them as "The federal government is requiring that you buy health insurance, and will punish you if you don't". The vast majority of this group reacts negatively to any issue that can be summed up with the opening sentence "The federal government is requiring that you..."


I would believe that if they didn't have their own issues where they would love to require people to do things. For example "the federal government is requiring that you only get married to people of the opposite gender." "The Federal Government is requiring you to pay the same tax rate no matter your income."

I get your general idea though. My examples are a bit different (the GOP would love it if you weren't required to pay any taxes, for example.) Basically they are against anything close or similar to a universal healthcare system. I just have a hard time seeing how we don't already have that by requiring ER rooms to treat everyone. We're just broke because we're requiring treatment but not funding.


Actually a Conservative believes that the government should be able to live off of what it makes, not what it takes.

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:39 am 
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The Conservative wrote:
Actually a Conservative believes that the government should be able to live off of what it makes, not what it takes.


Does a government "make" anything? I guess laws, so they could sell some books. Even licenses and what not are a form of "taking."


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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:41 am 
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Cadair wrote:
The Conservative wrote:
Actually a Conservative believes that the government should be able to live off of what it makes, not what it takes.


Does a government "make" anything? I guess laws, so they could sell some books. Even licenses and what not are a form of "taking."


I think he was thinking more the line of tarriffs and duty taxes.

Or, I'm wrong. (OH! Vell!)


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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:58 am 
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Harry K wrote:
Cadair wrote:
The Conservative wrote:
Actually a Conservative believes that the government should be able to live off of what it makes, not what it takes.


Does a government "make" anything? I guess laws, so they could sell some books. Even licenses and what not are a form of "taking."


I think he was thinking more the line of tarriffs and duty taxes.



Bingo.

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:46 am 
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Harry K wrote:
I think he was thinking more the line of tarriffs and duty taxes.


The Conservative wrote:
Bingo.


How is that "making" and not just "taking?"


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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:51 am 
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Cadair wrote:
Harry K wrote:
I think he was thinking more the line of tarriffs and duty taxes.


The Conservative wrote:
Bingo.


How is that "making" and not just "taking?"


A government's role isn't to make anything, but to live off of minimal interference between the people and their wealth. The basic standards are fair taxes and tarriffs are what makes a country go round.

Such as at one time the taxes from corporations almost mirror what our military budget used... there is a reason for that...

The same goes for all other forms of taxes, etc... now the government has just gotten greedy, and demanding. The middle class takes the hit while the poor and the rich ride the wave of government. That is not how things were meant to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:05 pm 
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The Conservative wrote:
A government's role isn't to make anything, but to live off of minimal interference between the people and their wealth. The basic standards are fair taxes and tarriffs are what makes a country go round.

Such as at one time the taxes from corporations almost mirror what our military budget used... there is a reason for that...

The same goes for all other forms of taxes, etc... now the government has just gotten greedy, and demanding. The middle class takes the hit while the poor and the rich ride the wave of government. That is not how things were meant to be.


Not that I disagree what what you said above, but it isn't really an answer. It just says that you think Governments should take less and only use that amount.

In fact, it contradicts what you said earlier...
The Conservative wrote:
Actually a Conservative believes that the government should be able to live off of what it makes, not what it takes.


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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:12 pm 
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All of you are wrong.

The reason why conservatives don't like ACA is because we have a plurality election system.

In a plurality election system, whichever candidate gets the most votes (a plurality) but not necessarily the majority of votes wins the election.

But what this does is it tends to cause a 2-party system to naturally form. Let me explain how.

We have 4 parties: Democratic, Republican, Libertarian, and Green. Each party puts forth their own candidate for election.

The Democratic candidate gets 40% of the vote, the Republican candidate gets 35% of the vote, the Libertarian candidate gets 20%, and the Green candidate gets 5%.

So under the plurality voting system, the Democratic candidate wins the election because it gets the most votes out of all the other candidates - a plurality.

However, he did not get a majority of votes. In fact, the majority of the population is ideologically opposed to the candidate. So the candidate is representing a people that 60% of the population didn't endorse him and 55% are ideologically opposed.

So the Libertarian and Green candidates are spoilers. So the Republican Party tries to bring in Libertarians and the Democratic Party tries to bring in Greens. This is done to consolidate votes into fewer and fewer blocs that have better chances of winning.

Thus, a two-party system naturally emerges.

So what does this have to with why conservatives don't like the ACA?

Well, it's because for every policy that's out there politicians know that there will be some group of people who oppose it. It doesn't matter why they oppose it - they just know that someone won't like it.

So in order to get those votes, the parties polarize. One side is for something, and the other side is against it. One side is against something, so the other side is for it.

All to maximize as many votes as possible.

This is called "Duverger's Law" btw - you can find it on wikipedia.


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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Cadair wrote:
The Conservative wrote:
A government's role isn't to make anything, but to live off of minimal interference between the people and their wealth. The basic standards are fair taxes and tarriffs are what makes a country go round.

Such as at one time the taxes from corporations almost mirror what our military budget used... there is a reason for that...

The same goes for all other forms of taxes, etc... now the government has just gotten greedy, and demanding. The middle class takes the hit while the poor and the rich ride the wave of government. That is not how things were meant to be.


Not that I disagree what what you said above, but it isn't really an answer. It just says that you think Governments should take less and only use that amount.

In fact, it contradicts what you said earlier...
The Conservative wrote:
Actually a Conservative believes that the government should be able to live off of what it makes, not what it takes.


No, I am saying how it is now, I am not saying I agree with it. I am saying that that is how government is run now... it's not how it should be.

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 Post subject: Re: Why don't conservatives like that ACA?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:32 am 
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Our voting isn't done like that.

We have two kinds of races - partisan and non-partisan. In partisan races, each party gets to run one candidate. In non-partisan elections, multiple candidates from each party may run.

You have pluralities winning only in the partisan elections. Generally, though, even partisan elections are won by majorities.

In non-partisan races, you have runoffs between the top two vote getters. The majority wins in these races.

The presidential elections are voted on by the Electoral College, which is made up of delegates from each state. The system is set up to generally have victories go to a majority, not a plurality.


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