Another Police Videotaping story

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Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Dan » Mon May 16, 2011 7:34 pm

+ extra goodies to make the story more...uh...Orwellian.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stoss ... rrying-gun
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby nmoore63 » Mon May 16, 2011 7:48 pm

I've never been much of an activist... but this shit pisses me off.

Seriously considering doing the leg work to get an Initiative on the Ballot here in Washington about this...

My understanding is what that dude did is very much illegal in Washington... I can't see the public voting it down... course I try not to put my faith in the public...

...that or do my best to come up with the perfect case and let my ass get arrested for doing this... my g-pa would love to argue in front of the Supreme Court again...
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... And furthermore, the NSA must be destroyed.
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Dan » Mon May 16, 2011 7:54 pm

Well, I always think that citizens should cooperate with the police at all times. But I am not sure how much more this guy could have done. Set the gun down and walk away maybe. I mean, he's certainly a libertarian activist type...but if he's not breaking the law and he's being respectful he sure didn't deserve the treatment he got (and I agree with Stossel...it's why there should be no question about the legality of taping the police. That to me is a no-brainer). I lived through the Rodney King beating video case...a video that would be illegal to tape today in many if not most jurisdictions...with the tapers liable for prosecution and the tape for seizure. How on earth folks can argue against the right to have such evidence available is beyond me (especially when it would otherwise be a police officer's word against a civilian).

I can 100% guarantee you that the LAPD would have denied the Rodney King story went down as it did without that tape (in fact, they kinda tried anyway!).
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby navy62802 » Mon May 16, 2011 7:58 pm

Here in VA, people are allowed to "open carry" even without a license. As long as you legally own the firearm, you can carry it in public. However, if anyone approaches you and says they feel threatened by your visible firearm, then you have to leave the premises. And you can be cited for disturbing the peace if you don't leave. But trust me, if you strap a gun to your leg and walk down the streets of Norfolk, you will get stopped by the cops regardless of whether the law says you can or not.

Here's my take on people complying with unlawful demands from the police. Today, you have recourse if the police treat you unlawfully. You can comply with their demands and then take them to court afterwards. And while you are not guaranteed to win your case, you have a good chance of being compensated in some fashion for the mistreatment. I fear, however, that there will come a day when we do not have recourse against illegal activity by the police. What then? Comply? Resist?
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Dan » Mon May 16, 2011 8:02 pm

navy62802 wrote: What then? Comply? Resist?


There is no "resist" at the time of the incident. You just do what they tell you and live to protest another day.
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby TheRidge » Mon May 16, 2011 8:49 pm

Another reason to record the police. Even if you are the police.

Listen to "Act Two. Is That a Tape Recorder in Your Pocket, or Are You Just Unhappy to See Me?"
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-a ... ain-silent
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Benkei » Mon May 16, 2011 8:54 pm

Dan wrote:
navy62802 wrote: What then? Comply? Resist?


There is no "resist" at the time of the incident. You just do what they tell you and live to protest another day.


This guy was an idiot, who almost got himself killed, because he's trying too hard to prove he's hard. Any moron who is so fearful that he actually has to wear a gun in plain view, as a security blanket, is going to put his ego before common sense every time. Any rational person would have just gotten down on the ground the moment they told him. They're cops, they wont mess around with this kind of thing; it's their job to not mess around with this kind of thing. Who here would think for a second that questioning one of these cops about a directive would work, in that moment? What, were the cops just going to put their guns away and apologise? Let him on his merry way? "We're sorry sir, clearly you're far more informed than we are on the law, and we'll never bother you again." I don't think so. Instead, the guy got all self-righteous and almost got himself shot through sheer arrogance. The cop's job is to contain the situation first, above all else, then, if you're right, you'll get the stupid gun, and you're equally stupid ego back again afterwards.

Cops can certainly be dicks, which is why they should be allowed to be filmed, but citizens are even more so, which is why you need cops to continue being assertive like that.
The above information is fictional, any reference to individuals either living or dead is purely coincidental, and any facts presented should be scrutinized with extreme prejudice.

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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby evil muppet » Mon May 16, 2011 9:02 pm

In a case like this if you resist then someone is going to get shot.

Here in New Hampshire it is legal to open carry without a permit. You need a permit to conceal carry. I've never had a problem when I open carry yet but I've known a few people whose had problems. When we have an incident like this there is an open carry litter pickup. The area surrounding the police station gets to be very clean for a short period.
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Atanamis » Mon May 16, 2011 9:08 pm

Bull, those cops ought to be facing jail time for harassment, and their careers should be over. So long as we say nonsense like we "need cops to continue being assertive like that" we get to continue down the path to a police state. That anyone is supportive of this is incredible. Whatever elected official has jurisdiction here should lose their job in their next election.
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Benkei » Mon May 16, 2011 9:38 pm

Atanamis wrote:Bull, those cops ought to be facing jail time for harassment, and their careers should be over. So long as we say nonsense like we "need cops to continue being assertive like that" we get to continue down the path to a police state. That anyone is supportive of this is incredible. Whatever elected official has jurisdiction here should lose their job in their next election.


What I'm supportive of is the cop's ability to contain a situation, and that ends the moment the guy is cuffed and the weapon is removed from his grasp. If they see a guy on the street carrying in open view, and they think it is illegal, even if they are wrong, they should still be able to tell him to get his ass down and cuff him... then, they can find out they made the mistake, and the guy gets his gun back, lesson learned.

The day a cop sees a guy walking across the road, towards a diner, with a rifle, and the cop tells him to get down, but is talked out of it by the suspect himself, is the day a lot of people in a diner are gonna get shot up. And that is not good.

The continued harassment I don't agree with, and I certainly don't agree with it being illegal to film police; I honestly cannot see any justification for that at all. But all the events before that in this particular case, I have no problem with... apart from maybe the excessive language, that was uncalled for.
The above information is fictional, any reference to individuals either living or dead is purely coincidental, and any facts presented should be scrutinized with extreme prejudice.

Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking. - John Maynard Keynes.
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Montana_Zag » Mon May 16, 2011 9:46 pm

That cop was being a dick, but Fiorino didn't help his cause much by his attitude (the Youtube link to the audio clip is below). It was pretty easy to tell that Fiorino was being somewhat combative - which is the absolute worst way to behave during an encounter with a police officer. The proper response to an officer's command to lay down on the ground is not an insolent "Excuse me?"

The cop was in the wrong, no doubt, but Fiorino's best course of action would have been to cooperate (and not get shot), and then seek justice afterwards.

"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die." - Ned Stark
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Benkei » Mon May 16, 2011 9:53 pm

"Would you like to see my lisence...?"

NO, HE WANTS YOU TO GET ON THE GROUND, THAT'S WHY HE SAID GET ON THE GROUND

Idiot...
The above information is fictional, any reference to individuals either living or dead is purely coincidental, and any facts presented should be scrutinized with extreme prejudice.

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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Montana_Zag » Mon May 16, 2011 9:56 pm

Benkei wrote:The continued harassment I don't agree with, and I certainly don't agree with it being illegal to film police; I honestly cannot see any justification for that at all. But all the events before that in this particular case, I have no problem with... apart from maybe the excessive language, that was uncalled for.


Well said.
"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die." - Ned Stark
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby Atanamis » Mon May 16, 2011 9:56 pm

Benkei wrote:The day a cop sees a guy walking across the road, towards a diner, with a rifle, and the cop tells him to get down, but is talked out of it by the suspect himself, is the day a lot of people in a diner are gonna get shot up. And that is not good.
This kind of paranoia is exactly the attitude a police state encourages. People are happy to be strip searched and cavity checked at airports because the government has worked them into a frenzy about the scary terrorists, despite the fact that the TSA has YET to catch one. China has their population grateful for the internet filtering to protect them from the evil propaganda about their government. Abusive police states encourage exactly the kind of terror filled mindset of sheep like you who find a way to justify civilians being harassed and abused because the cop thought he could make up his own laws. And rather than support the cop facing charges for his illegal abuse of a innocent person, you support his ability to control a situation. Are you an admirer of how all totalitarian police forces control the situation? It amazes me the number of people like you who are willing to sell out our nations founding principles out of sniveling fear of imagined threats. Gotta stay scared of all those nasty people walking around with scary guns though, right? I mean, we let any wacko drive around with a weapon that can kill a whole diner full of people at once, but it is the nice gentleman with a rifle that you want to see shot down by a spooked cop that can't be bothered to read his government's firearms law. I mean, I get that cops can't be bothered to know every detail of the law. One would think basic gun laws would be on the list though. This is at the least gross negligence of the department to educate their staff, and more likely a culture of abuse given that the chief apparently sees nothing wrong with his officer's behavior. But you stay impressed by their ability to control a situation.
Montana_Zag wrote:The cop was in the wrong, no doubt, but Fiorino's best course of action would have been to cooperate (and not get shot), and then seek justice afterwards.
Yes, and I've told my wife if she is ever raped by an armed man to just submit and we'll pick up the pieces afterward. The fact that it is safest to submit to an armed and dangerous person threatening you harm doesn't make what the cop did any less abusive. If it were me and the guy was a street thug I'd have gotten on the ground, much less a cop who I would hope is much less likely to shoot me after I did so. Their behavior afterward regarding the video shows that this is hardly a lone cop making an honest mistake though. This is a police department used to getting away with whatever abuses they wish because they can intimidate and threaten people into submitting. And people like Benkei will be impressed by their ability to control a situation.
Benkei wrote:"Would you like to see my lisence...?"
NO, HE WANTS YOU TO GET ON THE GROUND, THAT'S WHY HE SAID GET ON THE GROUND
Idiot...
Agreed, trying to talk with a thug holding a gun is always idiotic, even if the thug is wearing a uniform.
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Re: Another Police Videotaping story

Postby TheRidge » Mon May 16, 2011 10:04 pm

Benkei wrote:
Dan wrote:
navy62802 wrote: What then? Comply? Resist?


There is no "resist" at the time of the incident. You just do what they tell you and live to protest another day.


This guy was an idiot, who almost got himself killed, because he's trying too hard to prove he's hard. Any moron who is so fearful that he actually has to wear a gun in plain view, as a security blanket, is going to put his ego before common sense every time. Any rational person would have just gotten down on the ground the moment they told him. They're cops, they wont mess around with this kind of thing; it's their job to not mess around with this kind of thing. Who here would think for a second that questioning one of these cops about a directive would work, in that moment? What, were the cops just going to put their guns away and apologise? Let him on his merry way? "We're sorry sir, clearly you're far more informed than we are on the law, and we'll never bother you again." I don't think so. Instead, the guy got all self-righteous and almost got himself shot through sheer arrogance. The cop's job is to contain the situation first, above all else, then, if you're right, you'll get the stupid gun, and you're equally stupid ego back again afterwards.

Cops can certainly be dicks, which is why they should be allowed to be filmed, but citizens are even more so, which is why you need cops to continue being assertive like that.


Isn't it better to have the police know the law correctly first ?
We don't know if Fiorino had a point to prove or figured it was safer to show his weapon. But he did nothing illegal. Hence what right did the police have to secure the situation in the first place ? Police are trained (or should be) to handle people who seem confused about the a different understanding of the law. The kind of police we should have can tell the difference between someone who is an actual threat and someone who seems confused about a difference in opinion about the law. If Fiorino had drawn his gun or attempted to, this would be a different situation.

ok, I get why the police wanted him on his knees, to prevent an escape situation. I don't have a huge problem with that part. The police over reacted when Fiorino tried to explain the law. The proper response would have been, "we are verifying your claim. Stay in position until all the information has been confirmed". They gave the impression they were a group of thugs. Fiorino certainly appeared more professional than the police, maybe slightly confrontational but not in any threatening manner. All the threats were from the police. Once cooler heads prevailed, looks like most of it got settled out. It is interesting that they tried to charge him at the moment with disorderly conduct but it was refused. Then when this was posted, they decided to go back after him with disorderly conduct.

So really, I don't care if Fiorino was an idiot for wearing it on the outside. He had a legal right to do so as confirmed in the end by the police. The fact that they tried to pin something on him and it was refused until they were publicly embarrassed shows the police in Philly are trying to be thugs and should be recorded. Looking forward to the trial to hear the judge.

Below was what I could figure out from the recording

I am listening to the recording. At 2:29 Fiorino has been polite and informative. He also has agreed to "get down" after one officer is pointing a gun and the other is pointing a taser at him. At 3:41 a police officer says "I'm trying to tell him it's not an open carry state". I checked into this and see the following: http://www.pafoa.org/law/carrying-firearms/open-carry . As far as the state goes, it's fine for open carry, but in a city, it requires a license. So far in this recording, no police officer has bothered to ask to see his license. At 4:03 is when Fiorino says, "I'm sorry gentlemen if I am under arrest then I have nothing more to say to you". This is when the police say, "Shut the fuck up". I guess I am wondering if he is under arrest at this point, where is his Myranda rights ? I realize police need to confront a situation, harshly if it can turn violent. But they are have a responsibility to inform the person they are addressing with their intentions. At 5:00 they find his recorder and are upset. Fiorino explains he is in public. Police accuse Fiorino of "doing this on purpose" and he denies it. Between 6:00 and 14:00 not much really happens or to hard to make it clear what is going on. By 14:15 it seems they have acknowledged Fiorino is right about the law. At 14:45 the police try to make a case that Fiorino was not cooperating but it seems he doesn't win that argument.
There was a seminar for advanced students in Zürich that I was teaching and von Neumann was in the class. I came to a certain theorem, and I said it is not proved and it may be difficult. Von Neumann didn't say anything but after five minutes he raised his hand. When I called on him he went to the blackboard and proceeded to write down the proof. After that I was afraid of von Neumann.
How to Solve It, George Pólya

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later, Philip K. Dick

Drop in, post something, fight, get pissed off, and then find out you learned something along the way. You will find that is often a pattern you will go through in the D.C.F. ~ TheRidge
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