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 Post subject: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:52 am 
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Satrap
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This is an exchange I had with a friend of mine who is an ultra-libertarian turned Tea Party/Palin/Bachmann supporter. As you can see from the exchange, he uses all the same tactics as those he supports. Repeat nonsense long enough and people will start to accept it as fact.

I post it here to highlight the difference in the level of debate between the two fora. I have gotten spoiled on these boards. Even on our worst day, we won't accept the kind of tripe he puts forward as argument.

My question is, when the general public finds his sort of arguments convincing, as about half the population seems to, what chance does reasoned discussion stand? To take that thought even further, if citizens are uninterested or unable in engaging in a reasoned discussion, what chance does our country stand?

Oh, and notice the avatar of the first dissenter. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:55 am 
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You do that on FaceBook?!?

Jesus man, you're a glutton for punishment.
:drunk:

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:58 am 
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I closed my FB account due to that nonsense.

I've really no interest in when my friends and family are going to Starbucks or going to nap - I'd like to discuss things.

But, they want safety..... and warrant-less searching and naked body scans and etc etc ad nauseum.

I just left.

:shakinghead: :shakinghead:

I've really no hope whatsoever that it will be fixed in my lifetime, really, so I keep cheering for the crazy train to pick up speed.

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:24 am 
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Satrap
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DBTrek wrote:
You do that on FaceBook?!?

Jesus man, you're a glutton for punishment.
:drunk:

Rarely, and only with David. He and I used to have these discussions in person. Before the TP came along, he was as anti-partisan as they come. I don't know what his malfunction is now.

David has always skirted the boundaries of Trolldom. I half suspect he is just trying to goad me into a reaction for fun. I treat it as a chance to discredit his ideas among the morons he has attracted on FB. I'm not actually talking to him, so much as having at the cartoonish pinata of ideas he puts out there for the benefit of the few that might recognize them for what they are.

That, and I just like to argue... :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:42 am 
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But dude . . . doesn't your moms see that stuff?

Daaaaang.

I don't argue politics on my FB because I KNOW most people are idiots. But the FB-World knowing that I know this isn't going to make my life any easier.

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:54 am 
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I generally link to interesting articles, many I've found on this forum, but rarely get into a debate. Simply because most just ignore my links and go straight for the gossip instead. People don't like to be bothered with "stuff" like a crumbling economy or corrupt politicians.

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My Political Compass

"Friends applaud, the comedy is over" - Beethoven

"I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?" - Clark W. Griswold


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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:09 am 
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Nomarch
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@DB;

Don't get me wrong, I"m probably almost as cynical as you about my friends and about the future. But assuming that we do want things to change (after all, why else do we listen to CS) then doesn't that start with changing the attitudes and perceptions of the people around us? Shouldn't those of us who are not completely blind be discussing these things with our friends and family?

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So as long as there are a handful of americans allied with terrorist organizations we will continue this surveillance of all americans and these wartime authorities to detain enemy combatants indefinitely... or execute them summarily...

...Because terrorists might take their puny little militaries and conquer our country.

This is a war on fleas.

-DrYouth


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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:20 am 
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Flynn wrote:
@DB;

Don't get me wrong, I"m probably almost as cynical as you about my friends and about the future. But assuming that we do want things to change (after all, why else do we listen to CS) then doesn't that start with changing the attitudes and perceptions of the people around us? Shouldn't those of us who are not completely blind be discussing these things with our friends and family?


Well . .. suppose you want to teach people things about Calculus. Would you go to a Math forum where interested parties with different experiences and stories are discussing it . . . or throw some equations up on FB where the gibbering masses will scratch their heads and 'lol' at it?

To me it's about addressing an audience that can hear what you're saying. You think my friends in Florida want to hear the truth about the festering corruption that is our government? No. They want to hear that party 'X' is evil, and party 'Y' is the only REAL AMERICAN party on Earth. They aren't hungry for truth, they're hungry for re-enforcement, which makes them deaf to anything useful I mayhave to say.

So . . . I save myself the trouble and talk to people who have a modicum of interest in these topics instead.
/shrug

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:27 am 
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DBTrek wrote:
So . . . I save myself the trouble and talk to people who have a modicum of interest in these topics instead.
/shrug

+1....

Yeah, I tried for several years with family and made zero progress while bashing my brains against concrete bricks.

I've just recently stopped - when my cousin told me that the naked scans were no big deal because "you seen one body you seen 'em all," and besides, now she feels safe flying, I just decided it was time to stop.

Nobody could force feed me the information. I had to go looking for it when I started realizing that I was missing a big piece of the puzzle.

I was a completely different, "deaf-to-reality," person 12 years ago.

I can recall the exact time where the flip switched... the aha moment that opened up the door to everything else. The aha moment for me had nothing to do with politics and nothing to do with religion..... but those two previously held belief systems crumbled pretty quickly once I opened my eyes on something completely unrelated.

People have to get there on their own.

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:33 am 
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Though I don't fault anyone for not wanting to discuss this stuff with family and friends, I think there is a difference in providing information, or access to it, and trying to convert someone. I do find it annoying when someone drones on and on about something that I couldn't care less about, really doesn't drive me to discussion as much as it makes me want to punch them.

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My Political Compass

"Friends applaud, the comedy is over" - Beethoven

"I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?" - Clark W. Griswold


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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:56 am 
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Satrap
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Fortunately, my mom has never joined FB and my dad knows me well enough to expect it.

I guess it's a feature of my real personality, so I've carried it over to FB. If you know me personally, you know I talk about shit like this all the time. I always have. I don't usually get into public debates any more, but I've been out of step with the world (and known it) for as long as I can remember. I talked about stuff like this in high school, in college, and at work as an adult.

It has been a constant struggle for all my adult life to learn how to moderate myself, to keep these sorts of things out of business or public conversations. Even today, I slip and bring up politics or respond to a religion question from a customer in a sales situation occasionally. I know better, but that's my default response. I love ideas and I don't believe in taboo subjects. But other people do. I've learned that the hard way.

For me, learning when to STFU has been my greatest challenge. FB just makes it easier to remind people of that. :goteam:

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Nomarch
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Chris wrote:
I love ideas and I don't believe in taboo subjects. But other people do. I've learned that the hard way.


I know what you're saying, and it took me a long time to figure out that other people get really offended when you disagree with them and can positively hate you when you challenge their core belief system. Like you, there's nothing I'd rather do than engage with people about politics and religion. I don't recognize them as taboo subjects, but as things we should be talking about as a society. Also, I don't mind it when people show me that I'm wrong about something - actually I am appreciative. Most people aren't it turns out.

At 32, I'm much better at understanding these things than I was at 22. I used to be pretty unbearable, I imagine.

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So as long as there are a handful of americans allied with terrorist organizations we will continue this surveillance of all americans and these wartime authorities to detain enemy combatants indefinitely... or execute them summarily...

...Because terrorists might take their puny little militaries and conquer our country.

This is a war on fleas.

-DrYouth


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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Flynn wrote:
I don't mind it when people show me that I'm wrong about something - actually I am appreciative. Most people aren't it turns out.


:welcome:

Just kidding (sort of)

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My Political Compass

"Friends applaud, the comedy is over" - Beethoven

"I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?" - Clark W. Griswold


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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Satrap
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Flynn wrote:
Chris wrote:
I love ideas and I don't believe in taboo subjects. But other people do. I've learned that the hard way.


I know what you're saying, and it took me a long time to figure out that other people get really offended when you disagree with them and can positively hate you when you challenge their core belief system. Like you, there's nothing I'd rather do than engage with people about politics and religion. I don't recognize them as taboo subjects, but as things we should be talking about as a society. Also, I don't mind it when people show me that I'm wrong about something - actually I am appreciative. Most people aren't it turns out.

At 32, I'm much better at understanding these things than I was at 22. I used to be pretty unbearable, I imagine.

Unbearable? Oh yeah.

I have a buddy from college that keeps me humble. He reminds me that, in the classes we took together, I was often considered by our classmates to be "That Guy". To give you some idea of how oblivious I was, I didn't even know until he told me... :uhhh:

And BTW, I'm 42, and it's definitely better than at 32. I don't even want to think about 18. I often say that if Me now met Me then, I would kick my own ass.

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 Post subject: Re: What We At The D.C.F. Are Up Against...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:40 pm 
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cblack.tx wrote:
I often say that if Me now met Me then, I would kick my own ass.


How funny; I've said the exact same thing. For me, it took getting married to become more self-aware. Also, the boards here have been humbling. to say the least. After getting my ass kicked around here for the first 1500 posts or so, I'm not nearly ask cocky and I try to spend more time listening and less time sharing my "wisdom."

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So as long as there are a handful of americans allied with terrorist organizations we will continue this surveillance of all americans and these wartime authorities to detain enemy combatants indefinitely... or execute them summarily...

...Because terrorists might take their puny little militaries and conquer our country.

This is a war on fleas.

-DrYouth


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