How can we fund the Government without taxes?

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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby lakepsailor » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:03 pm

StCapps wrote:
lakepsailor wrote:
StCapps wrote:
If the shareholders are private entities and not the US government then it doesn't matter if the government set up the structure and appoints key members, it's still privately owned. The Post Office is publicly owned unlike the Fed so the comparison is ridiculous. If you think the US government owns the Federal Reserve just because it created it than you are the ignorant one.


Really, and precisely who are these shareholders you refer to? Funny but I didn't see any stock ticker symbol for the Fed.
The Fed won't tell you who owns it. That is confidential. Got to love that Federal government oversight. :hmph:[/quote]
Ahhh... so it's a SECRET. :puhleeze:
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby StCapps » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:04 pm

lakepsailor wrote:Ahhh... so it's a SECRET. :puhleeze:
I'm dead serious dude. It's such a pathetic state of affairs that it sounds insane but that's how the Fed has worked for nearly a century. Just a heads up.
Last edited by StCapps on Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby lakepsailor » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:09 pm

StCapps wrote:
lakepsailor wrote:Ahhh... so it's a SECRET. :puhleeze:
I'm dead serious dude. It's such a pathetic state of affairs that it sounds insane but that's how the Fed has worked for nearly a century. Just a heads up.


You may want to stop skipping your meds. It really is important to keep up.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby StCapps » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:11 pm

lakepsailor wrote:
StCapps wrote:
lakepsailor wrote:Ahhh... so it's a SECRET. :puhleeze:
I'm dead serious dude. It's such a pathetic state of affairs that it sounds insane but that's how the Fed has worked for nearly a century. Just a heads up.


You may want to stop skipping your meds. It really is important to keep up.
Most other countries around the world are smart enough to nationalize ownership of their central bank but the US is not one of those countries. This is common knowledge, maybe you should take the time to actually learn how the Federal Reserve works before you assume it's just like any other nations central bank. It isn't.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby lakepsailor » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:19 pm

StCapps wrote:
lakepsailor wrote:
StCapps wrote:I'm dead serious dude. It's such a pathetic state of affairs that it sounds insane but that's how the Fed has worked for nearly a century. Just a heads up.


You may want to stop skipping your meds. It really is important to keep up.
Most other countries around the world are smart enough to nationalize ownership of their central bank but the US is not one of those countries. This is common knowledge, maybe you should take the time to actually learn how the Federal Reserve works before you assume it's just like any other nations central bank. It isn't.

Dude, the Federal Reserve here is actually a lot more transparent than the Europeans. The minutes of every meeting are actually published, just not in real-time. Anyone who's watched the markets do the yo-yo every time Greenspan opened his mouth understands the reason why.

You can't nationalize a Federal Department. That's like taking back your candy from yourself.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby StCapps » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:08 pm

lakepsailor wrote:Dude, the Federal Reserve here is actually a lot more transparent than the Europeans. The minutes of every meeting are actually published, just not in real-time. Anyone who's watched the markets do the yo-yo every time Greenspan opened his mouth understands the reason why.

You can't nationalize a Federal Department. That's like taking back your candy from yourself.
It's a private independent entity that works for the federal government.
Wikipedia wrote:The Federal Reserve System's structure is composed of the presidentially appointed Board of Governors (or Federal Reserve Board), the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation, numerous privately owned U.S. member banks and various advisory councils. The FOMC is the committee responsible for setting monetary policy and consists of all seven members of the Board of Governors and the twelve regional bank presidents, though only five bank presidents vote at any given time. The Federal Reserve System has both private and public components, and was designed to serve the interests of both the general public and private bankers.

According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is independent within government in that "its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government."

The U.S. Government receives all of the system's annual profits, after a statutory dividend of 6% on member banks' capital investment is paid

The privately owned US bank members of the Federal Reserve do not answer to US Congress and their identities were protected by the Federal Reserve. How can you say the Fed is more transparent than European Central Banks when they have only had one partial congressional audit in almost a century of operation? You are just trolling now.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby lakepsailor » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:11 pm

StCapps wrote:
lakepsailor wrote:Dude, the Federal Reserve here is actually a lot more transparent than the Europeans. The minutes of every meeting are actually published, just not in real-time. Anyone who's watched the markets do the yo-yo every time Greenspan opened his mouth understands the reason why.

You can't nationalize a Federal Department. That's like taking back your candy from yourself.
It's a private independent entity that works for the federal government.
Wikipedia wrote:The Federal Reserve System's structure is composed of the presidentially appointed Board of Governors (or Federal Reserve Board), the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation, numerous privately owned U.S. member banks and various advisory councils. The FOMC is the committee responsible for setting monetary policy and consists of all seven members of the Board of Governors and the twelve regional bank presidents, though only five bank presidents vote at any given time. The Federal Reserve System has both private and public components, and was designed to serve the interests of both the general public and private bankers.

According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is independent within government in that "its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government."

The U.S. Government receives all of the system's annual profits, after a statutory dividend of 6% on member banks' capital investment is paid

The privately owned US bank members of the Federal Reserve do not answer to US Congress and their identities are protected by the Federal Reserve.

How can you say the Fed is more transparent than European Central Banks when they have only had one partial congressional audit in almost a century of operation? You are just trolling now.


Assertion is not evidence. Show me some damn evidence for your assertions. I've given you direct information regarding how the Fed was started and how it operates. So far all I've heard from you are accusations and innuendo.

NO department of the Federal Government as been independently audited in the 20th or 21st centuries. You think the Fed is unique somehow?
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby StCapps » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:26 pm

The regional Federal Reserve Banks are privately owned, but are controlled by the Board of Governors -- whose members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The Board sets monetary policy and the Federal Reserve Banks execute it. Deny if you wish but that's how the system works.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby lakepsailor » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:32 pm

StCapps wrote:The regional Federal Reserve Banks are private owned, but they are controlled by the Board of Governors -- a federal agency whose members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The Board sets monetary policy and the Federal Reserve Banks execute it.

So you're now admitting that the Fed itself is a Federal agency. See, you CAN learn.

The term "Federal Reserve Bank" is a designation, not a status. That is, the bank exists regardless of designation and the designation can be removed. First NBC bank here in New Orleans was a Fed Reserve Bank in the 1980s. When bank ownership changed hands it lost that designation.

Think "Fall Out Shelters" back when we had such things. Most of them were basements of privately owned buildings but subject to being taken over in an emergency. The banks are simply instruments of Federal policy, they don't make it and really can't even influence it anymore.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby StCapps » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:47 pm

lakepsailor wrote:So you're now admitting that the Fed itself is a Federal agency. See, you CAN learn.
Never said it wasn't.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby hondo69 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:28 am

Tyrius wrote:
hondo69 wrote:If you have a flat tax of say, 15%, it would be a tax decrease for most people. At least as far as an income tax goes, it doesn't count so called "soft taxes" that are hidden from the public.

There is a relatively new problem, however, from when it was first proposed years ago. Back then, the large majority of people paid federal income tax. Now, about 1/2 the country pays none. Shocking as that may sound, it's all by design, just part of the grand scheme to keep us on the road to serfdom.


Your two paragraphs are in direct contradiction with each other. If everyone pays 15% you say "it would be a tax decrease for most people" then in the next paragraph you say "Now, about 1/2 the country pays none.". So, 1/2 the country pays 0% and instituting a flat tax is going to DECREASE their taxes? No. A 15% flat tax will result in a tax increase for the poor or "most people".


I wasn't clear, I shoud have said:

A flat tax of 15% would be a tax decrease, for those of us who currently pay federal taxes. You can't decrease taxes on those who pay zero now.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby hondo69 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:45 am

Here's a tax most people don't think about as it relates to the Fed . . .

Retirees that were born in the 30's to 40's have seen the purchasing power of the dollar drop 80-90% during their lifetime. Had they put $100 under the mattress back then it would only be worth an equivalent of about $10 today. Those that invested in stocks or bonds over that period came out much better as the investment appreciated, though they still end up paying taxes on that appreciation.

http://observationsandnotes.blogspot.com/2011/04/100-year-declining-value-of-us-dollar.html

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CPIAUCNS/downloaddata?cid=9

While Fed policy has been unusually rough on retirees it affects us all today as our 401K's are affected by the value of the dollar, as it will affect our kids. Now you may want to debate whether or not this is a "tax" in it's truest sense, that is fine but it is a debate for another time. The main point is that Fed policy has a long term, big picture affect on all of us.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby lakepsailor » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:04 am

Don't blame the Fed for that. Blame us all. We wanted easy credit, and a constantly expanding economy and the Fed delivered for 20 years now.

That's like blaming the bartender for your hangover.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby StCapps » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:05 am

lakepsailor wrote:Don't blame the Fed for that. Blame us all. We wanted easy credit, and a constantly expanding economy and the Fed delivered for 20 years now.

That's like blaming the bartender for your hangover.
The Fed sets monetary policy which was a big reason why the economic crash happened. To not blame the Fed's choosen policy because "they were giving the people what they wanted" is stupid. Sure those who fueled the demand for that credit deserve some of the blame but to say that we shouldn't blame the Fed for setting that policy is beyond ridiculous.
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Re: How can we fund the Government without taxes?

Postby Kath » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:15 am

lakepsailor wrote:Don't blame the Fed for that. Blame us all.

Sorry, but the experts bear more responsibility than the average person. (How did you watch "Addicted to Money" and walk away feeling the lion's share of the burden falls on the average person?)

The fed was handing out FREE money to the banks who were then loaning it to us at 19-30% interest rates.

Banks were giving cash incentives to local bank managers for approving risky loans and pushing these risky loans onto people who the banks KNEW couldn't afford to pay them. They were punishing employees who refused to push loans.

Banks have never had this kind of relationship with the people before. Banks were historically the sober & careful lenders who didn't take on risky debt.
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