The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:00 pm

Guys, I have a crazy conspiracy theory too. What if -- now I know sounds crazy but -- what if 9-11 was perpetrated by a small group of terrorists without support from a national government? I mean.. Can you imagine? What if these guys just emigrated to the United States from their various nations (mostly Saudi Arabia), took flight classes, and then purchased tickets on the four airlines. Then they walk into the airport separately, carrying box cutters (which were not banned at the time), and got on the planes. Then when a certain time was reached in flight, they stood up and took over the aircraft.

I know that sounds crazy. But just imagine.
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby navy62802 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:30 pm

Dr. Strangelove wrote:Guys, I have a crazy conspiracy theory too. What if -- now I know sounds crazy but -- what if 9-11 was perpetrated by a small group of terrorists without support from a national government? I mean.. Can you imagine? What if these guys just emigrated to the United States from their various nations (mostly Saudi Arabia), took flight classes, and then purchased tickets on the four airlines. Then they walk into the airport separately, carrying box cutters (which were not banned at the time), and got on the planes. Then when a certain time was reached in flight, they stood up and took over the aircraft.

I know that sounds crazy. But just imagine.

Do you accept the 9/11 Commission report as the full story for what happened on that day?
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby The Mad Zeppelineer » Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:41 pm

navy62802 wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:Guys, I have a crazy conspiracy theory too. What if -- now I know sounds crazy but -- what if 9-11 was perpetrated by a small group of terrorists without support from a national government? I mean.. Can you imagine? What if these guys just emigrated to the United States from their various nations (mostly Saudi Arabia), took flight classes, and then purchased tickets on the four airlines. Then they walk into the airport separately, carrying box cutters (which were not banned at the time), and got on the planes. Then when a certain time was reached in flight, they stood up and took over the aircraft.

I know that sounds crazy. But just imagine.

Do you accept the 9/11 Commission report as the full story for what happened on that day?



There is no such thing as the "full story" on any major historical event (look up "Lincoln" on amazon books for example). But as an outline of the major events, it is a good and accurate summery.

How many of the theorists have actually cracked it open I wonder? Its a surprisingly good read.

http://www.911commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby navy62802 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:07 pm

The Mad Zeppelineer wrote:
navy62802 wrote:Do you accept the 9/11 Commission report as the full story for what happened on that day?



There is no such thing as the "full story" on any major historical event (look up "Lincoln" on amazon books for example). But as an outline of the major events, it is a good and accurate summery.

How many of the theorists have actually cracked it open I wonder? Its a surprisingly good read.

http://www.911commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf

OK, then if the 9/11 Commission report isn't the "full story" of what happened on 9/11, then what parts of the report are inadequate in your opinion? And what would constitute a "full story" of the events?
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby raistian77 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:42 pm

Dr. Strangelove wrote:Guys, I have a crazy conspiracy theory too. What if -- now I know sounds crazy but -- what if 9-11 was perpetrated by a small group of terrorists without support from a national government? I mean.. Can you imagine? What if these guys just emigrated to the United States from their various nations (mostly Saudi Arabia), took flight classes, and then purchased tickets on the four airlines. Then they walk into the airport separately, carrying box cutters (which were not banned at the time), and got on the planes. Then when a certain time was reached in flight, they stood up and took over the aircraft.

I know that sounds crazy. But just imagine.




:doioi:

Come on Doc, be real wayyyyyyyy to complex


Mush simpler if the US flew unmanned remote control jets into the towers at the same exact time they detonated special charges snuck into the towers at a earlier time. They also flew a missile into the pentagon and strewn jet remains all over to fool the masses.

The people on all the planes either were executed or hidden somewhere in the world. Dna samples were taken to spread around the crash sites to fool Americans into thinking this happened.

We also payed Osma to take credit for 9/11 to make it look real.


Come on Doc, it is called Occam's Razor
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby navy62802 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:49 pm

raistian77 wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:Guys, I have a crazy conspiracy theory too. What if -- now I know sounds crazy but -- what if 9-11 was perpetrated by a small group of terrorists without support from a national government? I mean.. Can you imagine? What if these guys just emigrated to the United States from their various nations (mostly Saudi Arabia), took flight classes, and then purchased tickets on the four airlines. Then they walk into the airport separately, carrying box cutters (which were not banned at the time), and got on the planes. Then when a certain time was reached in flight, they stood up and took over the aircraft.

I know that sounds crazy. But just imagine.




:doioi:

Come on Doc, be real wayyyyyyyy to complex


Mush simpler if the US flew unmanned remote control jets into the towers at the same exact time they detonated special charges snuck into the towers at a earlier time. They also flew a missile into the pentagon and strewn jet remains all over to fool the masses.

The people on all the planes either were executed or hidden somewhere in the world. Dna samples were taken to spread around the crash sites to fool Americans into thinking this happened.

We also payed Osma to take credit for 9/11 to make it look real.


Come on Doc, it is called Occam's Razor

Occam's Razor would proclaim that Saudi Arabia is responsible for the attacks. This would be the most direct conclusion drawn from the fact that 75% of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby RAnthony » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:09 pm

The Mad Zeppelineer wrote:
RAnthony wrote:Read it yourself. Research the facts if you doubt Stinnett's veracity. The only thing at variance with accepted fact that he presents is the date when Purple was broken. The defenders of the President and the historical myth insist that it wasn't until after Pearl. But that's not what his research shows. Everything else is documented fact that can be independently verified. I'm sorry that most people can't accept that their government would lie to them in this fashion.



He has no smoking gun, he has letters he assumes based on nothing were read and supported by the president. Its classic conspiracy theory writing. Start with conclusions. Invent or imply facts to support them.
FOIA document releases in his possession back up his theory. They also document that the Japanese did not observe radio silence, and that they were tracked along most of the path to Pearl. There is no conclusive evidence showing that FDR was told this information, but it is a lie to say that it was not known (and the date of the breaking of Purple is something that is not recorded directly in the record) and exactly how likely is it that FDR was not told this critical information? If it wasn't known, why were the recon missions curtailed in the days before the attack? Exactly how much are we supposed to believe here?
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby The Mad Zeppelineer » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:39 am

navy62802 wrote:
The Mad Zeppelineer wrote:
navy62802 wrote:Do you accept the 9/11 Commission report as the full story for what happened on that day?



There is no such thing as the "full story" on any major historical event (look up "Lincoln" on amazon books for example). But as an outline of the major events, it is a good and accurate summery.

How many of the theorists have actually cracked it open I wonder? Its a surprisingly good read.

http://www.911commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf

OK, then if the 9/11 Commission report isn't the "full story" of what happened on 9/11, then what parts of the report are inadequate in your opinion? And what would constitute a "full story" of the events?



History is always being reinterpreted. New facts emerge. If we discover and authenticate a letter that showed Lincoln expressing his secret homosexuality, PRESTO, Lincoln is gay. History is re-written.

The 9/11 commission report is perfectly adequate in explaining the basic facts of the events as we knew them a few years ago.

Nothing however has been presented to refute the basic claims it makes. A nitpick here and there. But no actual evidence of any substantial mistake.

Occam's Razor would proclaim that Saudi Arabia is responsible for the attacks. This would be the most direct conclusion drawn from the fact that 75% of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.


There was an Egyptian, a Lebanese guy and a couple of guys from the UAE. Who cares? Do you have any evidence of material or other aid provided by the Saudi government to these people? If not, no connection. Why would the Saudi government want us to be attacked anyway. Makes no sense. They were AGAINST the war in Iraq (despite what Michael Moore insinuates). They wanted a Sunni buffer state between them and Iran.

FOIA document releases in his possession back up his theory. They also document that the Japanese did not observe radio silence, and that they were tracked along most of the path to Pearl. There is no conclusive evidence showing that FDR was told this information, but it is a lie to say that it was not known (and the date of the breaking of Purple is something that is not recorded directly in the record) and exactly how likely is it that FDR was not told this critical information? If it wasn't known, why were the recon missions curtailed in the days before the attack? Exactly how much are we supposed to believe here?


There are many reasons why you might pull back a recon mission. Maybe it was because nobody thought Pearl was the target. Through use of selective and misleading quotation, the author makes it sound like everyone knew it was Pearl. The opposite was true.

The book accuses the president, military grunts and leaders alike of mass murder and treason. Yet it doesn't provide any direct evidence of this conspiracy. Just hearsay and non sequiturs. Again. Conspiracy theory bullshit 101. You could do many pages on this travesty. But someone already did:

http://www.usncva.org/books/book-10.html

A lot of people hate Roosevelt. So its easy to peg him with this crime or the other. But it falls for the same reasons 9/11 truthers fail.

1. No solid evidence.

2. Too many people would have to be involved (and therefore be murderers/traitors).

3. Confused, ridiculous, or uncertain motivation for the alleged conspiracy.


The US would have responded to any attack by the Japanese. Its insane to think we needed to lose big. It could have been an overwhelming victory for the US. We still would have gone to war. WE WERE ATTACKED.

If Russia attacked a submarine base in Connecticut tomorrow. Do you think we would only go to war if it was a loss? We are starting to enter stupid territory.
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby Witten » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:36 am

Inquizitr wrote:
Witten wrote:I'm not saying false flag operations haven't been used. But those on the sheer scale of 9/11 are completely unnecessary.period. you've failed to give me a single example of any false flag operation on the magnitude of 9/11. none.

Always a first time for everything. I am sure the next contrivance will make 9/11 seem like a picnic in the park. Escalation is the only way to keep a policy alive.


That argument makes no sense.

if that were the case you'd see a steady increase in the magnitude of attacks for false flag operations, but you don't. If anything, As globalization and America increased its global status and became more involved in foreign affairs it takes LESS to convince the american people to go into foreign wars. It was much harder to convince the american people to go into war when the nation was isolationist in 1917 or 1941 as oppose to when it is the de facto superpower.

The more omnipotent the empire is, the more comfortable its citizens feel about engaging in unnecessary conquests. And take into account very few thought Iraq was going to turn into the quagmire it became. Saddam's regime was on the brink of collapse, and just everyone in Washington thought it would be a quick easy conflict, like a Panama, Grenada or Gulf War 1 (how many american civilians died to make American involvement in those wars happen?) The Occupation and Sectarian violence blind sided them and 'em look like an idiot. How many in the American Public or Congress honestly knew the War would turn out the way it did?
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby Witten » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:39 am

The Mad Zeppelineer wrote:
3. Confused, ridiculous, or uncertain motivation for the alleged conspiracy.


The US would have responded to any attack by the Japanese. Its insane to think we needed to lose big. It could have been an overwhelming victory for the US. We still would have gone to war. WE WERE ATTACKED.

If Russia attacked a submarine base in Connecticut tomorrow. Do you think we would only go to war if it was a loss? We are starting to enter stupid territory.


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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby Witten » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:55 am

navy62802 wrote:Occam's Razor would proclaim that Saudi Arabia is responsible for the attacks. This would be the most direct conclusion drawn from the fact that 75% of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.


The Saudis also were one of the few countries (along with the UAE) to recognize the Taliban as a legitimate government. The GCC had close ties to the Taliban. They wouldn't want them to be ousted. Plus, the Taliban could be used as a useful proxy against Iran.

Invading Iraq and Afghanistan have only strengthened Iran, not weakened it. The US took away their two hostile neighbors. And replaced them with weak regimes.

http://exiledonline.com/the-war-nerd-who-won-iraq-answer-anyone-who-stayed-out/
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby RAnthony » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:13 am

What I find fascinating is the modern acknowledgement of the fact that FDR was re-elected in 1940 on the lie of keeping us out of WWII, when not so long ago the defenders of FDR were insisting that he had no designs on getting us into that war, even though all the facts said otherwise.

...the fact that his defenders have had to give up that false ground, in the face of "wild conspiracy theories" that suggest an even more sinister design than just the knowledge that Hitler had to be resisted (not a popular idea pre-1940) and that America had to be brought into the war for this purpose, perhaps points out the value of conspiracy theories, at least in cases like this one.

I would expect a member of the service to defend his service; even in the face of evidence like that revealed by Stinnett. But the problem with the argument that this is just another failed conspiracy theory falls down if you understand just how few people would actually have knowledge of the specific information that Pearl was the likely target. Perhaps the reason why the generals in charge of Pearl were hung out to dry was that the Commander in Chief expected them to be prepared for the attack, and they weren't. Who knows? FDR was renowned for not telling his subordinates what his plans were. Truman wasn't selected by FDR as his running mate, explicitly, until the day of the convention that he didn't even attend. He never prepped Truman in any way for taking the reigns of government, even though the change in VP was done specifically because FDR's advisers wanted someone as second in command who was a steady hand on the wheel, with the foreknowledge that FDR would never survive 4 more years as president (he didn't even make it three months) secretive doesn't begin to describe the man.

The argument that FDR strangled Japan for oil (the exact actions taken that got us into WWI) all the while leaving the Pacific fleet stationary in Pearl, begs the question of "why" if not to get us into war. And if you're going to dangle bait, you'd better be able to tell where the predator is so that you can spring the trap.

So, is it less of an indictment to be surprised when we are attacked for doing the same things that got us attacked in WWI, than it is to suggest that military intelligence and FDR knew that Pearl was the target, but failed to impress this knowledge on the commanding generals of the base?
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby hondo69 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:04 am

I could be wrong, but it seems to me the whole 9/11 conspiracy theory is not that different than the assassination of JFK at its core.

The reason most people, including me, don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman is that it is simply inconcieveable that such a puny, inconsequential man could change history in such a monumental way. No, history can only be altered by immense forces that are nearly unstoppable at that moment in time.

Equally puzzling is the notion that some lunatic hiding in a cave could direct a small group of rag tag terrorists to bring down the towers. With box cutters no less. Nope, not a realistic scenario at all, just doesn't seem viable. It doesn't even pass the smell test. Or put another way, my brain just refuses to process that information.

Personally, I haven't spent 5 minutes following the 9/11 conspiracy theories and don't know the first thing about stress tests on steel or the rate of flame spread within a building. But you never know, maybe someday some credible evidence might just surface that would change that for me. Maybe Woody Harrelson's dad directed the whole thing from a jail cell, for example.

Like JFK, the 9/11 conspiracy theories will never die.
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby BjornP » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:27 am

hondo69 wrote:I could be wrong, but it seems to me the whole 9/11 conspiracy theory is not that different than the assassination of JFK at its core.

The reason most people, including me, don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman is that it is simply inconcieveable that such a puny, inconsequential man could change history in such a monumental way. No, history can only be altered by immense forces that are nearly unstoppable at that moment in time.

Equally puzzling is the notion that some lunatic hiding in a cave could direct a small group of rag tag terrorists to bring down the towers. With box cutters no less. Nope, not a realistic scenario at all, just doesn't seem viable. It doesn't even pass the smell test. Or put another way, my brain just refuses to process that information.


In other words, conspiracy theorists exists because they cannot, even on an intellectual level, imagine anyone changing the world around them without them holding an equal amount of power to the targetted party or institution (JFK/9-11, etc.)?

Which is also the reason they keep existing, I'd imagine. People like that will have so little faith in their own ability to change the world around them, they rather imagine fantastically powerful forces arrained against them, than actually trying.
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Re: The Ultimate 9/11 Truth/Conspiracy/debunking thread

Postby RAnthony » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:07 pm

I found this to be definitive;











...conspiracy theorists will of course come up with reasons why this proves nothing. Personally I see no reason to continue pretending that Oswald did not kill Kennedy.
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