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 Post subject: How are the two parties the same?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:16 am 
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Hi, I'm new both to this forum and listening to Common Sense and I have some questions for all of you so I can get up to speed so to speak.

1. I just want to make sure, most/all of you believe that Democrats and Republicans are fundamentally the same right?

2. If yes, then is the reason you think that mainly because of corruption, stuff like lobbyist money, outright bribes, pandering to voters and avoiding the real issues?

3. Would it be fair to say that both parties are the same in terms of the big picture (corruption) but are different on numerous issues, say The Dream Act (giving citizenship to illegal immigrants who were brought to America as kids if the follow certain conditions) but that in your opinion those issues are insignificant compared to the overwhelming big problem of corruption in America?


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 Post subject: Re: How are the two parties the same?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:12 am 
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Hey cat,

I never argue that the two parties are the same. It opens me up to a debate not worth having and I'm not able to win, no matter how strong the case that they're both horrible.

Having said, I think you've got the fundamental problem with the present state of American politics about right. Corruption infects the whole system, so it's a little tiresome listening to partisans defend their guys. It's as boring as entertaining who is better, Alabama or LSU, to a Big Ten fan.

On the other hand, the two parties do suck in different ways. I think the good cop/bad cop analogy works. If that's the question, carry on the debate. Lots to chew over. I'll just be over here watching basketball. Go Bucks!

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 Post subject: Re: How are the two parties the same?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:45 am 
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Satrap
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Catstantinople wrote:
1. I just want to make sure, most/all of you believe that Democrats and Republicans are fundamentally the same right?

We appear to have a substantial choice in the kind of rhetoric we want to hear, but minimal choice in most policies, and zero choice in many. All politicians are the same in their capacity to be prone to continually refining the system to get themselves perpetually reelected.

Quote:
2. If yes, then is the reason you think that mainly because of corruption, stuff like lobbyist money, outright bribes, pandering to voters and avoiding the real issues?

Much of it comes down to what gets you elected. Specific policies maintain the flow of campaign funds (see lists of largest campaign contributors). Most of them come down to maintaining the flow of federal funds itself, which is why neither party actually ever reigns in spending (see inability to fix social security). Some of them come down to preventing competition for the same dollars (see blackballing of third parties). Each of the parties can be seen as somewhat of an umbrella of special interest groups fighting over federal dollars with campaign contributions. The D's tend to get more money from union workers, the R's tend to get more money from corporate executives; but as long as they off the same vote on foreign policy and the federal reserve, they both get money from defense contractors and banks.

Quote:
3. Would it be fair to say that both parties are the same in terms of the big picture (corruption) but are different on numerous issues, say The Dream Act (giving citizenship to illegal immigrants who were brought to America as kids if the follow certain conditions) but that in your opinion those issues are insignificant compared to the overwhelming big problem of corruption in America?

I think both parties have little disagreement over the questions of if they need more power, more of your money, and less competition for your vote. Everything else stems from there. IMO they force feed irrelvant emotional distraction issues like gay marriage, prayer in schools, and abortion into the debates to give voters a sense of polarization and choice.


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 Post subject: Re: How are the two parties the same?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:12 am 
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The Boy Wonder
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Welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: How are the two parties the same?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:25 am 
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Archon
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They're both the WallStreet party, and WallStreet will be beating the citizens when it comes to bailouts, avoiding jail, and preferential treatment time and time again.


Image
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katehicks/2011/10/12/by_the_numbers_who_did_wall_street_buy_in_2008

Welcome to the Goldman Sachs/JPMorgan/CitiGroup/BoA/Morgan Stanley/Lehman Brothers party. They'll distract you with abortion, gay marriage, and gun control while crafting legislation that keep themselves rich at your expense.


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 Post subject: Re: How are the two parties the same?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Hetairoi
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Location: Hamilton, Ontario
What if Democrats and Republicans were two wings of the same bird of prey?

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 Post subject: Re: How are the two parties the same?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Hetairoi
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Posts: 6339
Location: The 50th State
DBTrek wrote:
They're both the WallStreet party, and WallStreet will be beating the citizens when it comes to bailouts, avoiding jail, and preferential treatment time and time again.


Image
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katehicks/2011/10/12/by_the_numbers_who_did_wall_street_buy_in_2008

Welcome to the Goldman Sachs/JPMorgan/CitiGroup/BoA/Morgan Stanley/Lehman Brothers party. They'll distract you with abortion, gay marriage, and gun control while crafting legislation that keep themselves rich at your expense.

It would be great to see the candidates wearing placards showing their donors, or perhaps stat lists (like sports) when they appear on TV. Maybe I need some video capture/editing software... :ugeek:

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