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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:36 am 
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Nomarch
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nmoore63 wrote:
evil muppet wrote:
nmoore63 wrote:
I would move to New Hampshire, except its going to get steam rolled by New England when the US decentralizes.

I'll take my chances with Cascadia.

Have all the food, power and natural resources we need.


NH is part of New England. My guess is that in a decentralized US, New England would divide itself between northern New England and southern New England.

Why?


There are just differences between the northern three from the southern three. Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine are rural and sparsely populated. They allow open carry of firearms. Northern NH, Vermont and Maine has a french influence.

Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island are more urban and a much higher population density. Gun laws are much more restrictive. The laws are more restrictive in general.

I think there is also a general theme in New England history of resistance to domination by Massachusetts. The other New England states got their start by people fleeing Massachusetts. After they became established as separate colonies there were repeated efforts to bring them under Mass. political control. Pretty much since colonial times resistance to control by Massachusetts seems to define these states. If the United States decentralized or dissolved entirely I think that this tendency will reemerge. Massachusetts would try to assert political control and the other states will push back.


Atanamis wrote:
]Thanks for you support! The secessionist talk is the thing that kept me from ever being much of a "Free State Project" supporter. I even read some of their forums for a while 5-7 years ago, but too many of these people are outright anarchists for me to support them.


There are some people in the FSP that support secession. It is a popular idea with us but the FSP is not a secessionist organization. Even though secession is a popular idea with Free Staters I am not aware of anyone who is actively working towards this end.


Cid wrote:
Exactly, which is why we're not letting you fuckers jump ship. You are the only ones that could conceivably keep the myth and idea around, and I'd be remiss in my duties as a bastard if I didn't sign up to keep you here and fulfill your manful obligations.

All the talk about how you love the idea/principles/etc don't mean wibble if you're not going to actually do anything other than ditch (with the land).


Stay on the plantation and be a good obedient slave.


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Wait. Hold up. I thought you guys just wanted to all move to a single state so you can implement your market libertarian ideas. I thought that was a good idea since you all can go to a single place. But now you want to secede from the union? Are you serious? Do you think the United States will let you punch a little hole in our map? Like a libertarian Luxemburg or something?

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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:43 am 
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Early in this thread some-one points out one of the key flaws in 'libertarian' philosophy; that being the arbitrary nature fo the cut-off date for the legitimacy of ownership. i.e. Libertarians claim that the use of force to gain property is never legitimate, but have the historical problem that, especially in North America, nearly all property was gained through the use of force. Thus they self-servingly institute some claim like 'Well there should be a break-off limit', the problem being precisely that any such limit is inherently self-serving. So the Chinese occupation of Tibet is now 'legitimate' because they held on for 50 years? Of course not, that makes no sense. Plus, despite attempts to the contrary, this isn't some abstraction, there are plenty of Native American groups seeking actual restitution for the loss of their property. We can track the particulars of who 'should' own that property in these cases in ways the counter-examples really can't be.

Sure, lets agree that the use of Force to gain property is illegitimate... lets just agree after I take all your stuff... THAN we can both agree on how illegitimate it is. The transparent self-serving nature of these assertions are pretty clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:51 am 
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Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Wait. Hold up. I thought you guys just wanted to all move to a single state so you can implement your market libertarian ideas. I thought that was a good idea since you all can go to a single place. But now you want to secede from the union? Are you serious? Do you think the United States will let you punch a little hole in our map? Like a libertarian Luxemburg or something?


The FSP is not a secessionist organization. The basic idea is to use the 'states as a laboratory' to showcase libertarian solutions.

I personally support secession. I advocate for secession here occasionally. I think that the federal government is becoming an authoritarian police state. I do not think that it is very likely that the course can be turned soon enough to stave this off. Efforts to reform the government will go no where. Power will continue to be centralized in Washington. The economy will continue to worsen and at some point we will run the risk of being pulled down into becoming a third world Kleptocracy or cut ourselves loose and try to start over.

Whether the United States would allow secession to happen is open to debate. I think that they might not have control over it. I suspect that secession movements would accompany other events in this country. My guess is that you'd see several states attempt to secede within a relatively short period of time. I think that the federal government will just start to disintegrate and at some point it would be too weak to prevent it.


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:26 pm 
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evil muppet wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Wait. Hold up. I thought you guys just wanted to all move to a single state so you can implement your market libertarian ideas. I thought that was a good idea since you all can go to a single place. But now you want to secede from the union? Are you serious? Do you think the United States will let you punch a little hole in our map? Like a libertarian Luxemburg or something?


The FSP is not a secessionist organization. The basic idea is to use the 'states as a laboratory' to showcase libertarian solutions.

I personally support secession. I advocate for secession here occasionally. I think that the federal government is becoming an authoritarian police state. I do not think that it is very likely that the course can be turned soon enough to stave this off. Efforts to reform the government will go no where. Power will continue to be centralized in Washington. The economy will continue to worsen and at some point we will run the risk of being pulled down into becoming a third world Kleptocracy or cut ourselves loose and try to start over.

Whether the United States would allow secession to happen is open to debate. I think that they might not have control over it. I suspect that secession movements would accompany other events in this country. My guess is that you'd see several states attempt to secede within a relatively short period of time. I think that the federal government will just start to disintegrate and at some point it would be too weak to prevent it.


I really think that any talk about secession from the US is just BS-ing to some fringe, small base of supporters. In reality it would most likely never happen and if it did happen the US will fight tooth and nail until the seceded area is back (a la "Second US Civil War).

Plus, the economic reality is that if any state (or region) does secedes from the US they will, no doubt, face tremendous economic hardships. Even if a region (like if the South secedes again) secedes from the US they will not be able to ship, produce, or even continue the way of life they enjoy (which is very similar to how we all live here in the US). Really, though, I live in the Northeast but I eat vegetables and fruits that are grown in the Southwest (and in other areas of the US and other parts of the world). It is very rare today, to find a remote area that can support itself without the help or aide from another region (in any form and trust me every state receives some kind of Federal money and without that money most states will not do well), which would lead to a breakdown of the secession state's government, etc...

Overall, the FSP have a cute flag (the porcupine instead of the snake was a cute idea) but I just don't agree with the idea that everybody needs to go off on their own and create their little fiefdoms out of the US. Government is effective when it benefits all the people and in the FSP's world only the ones with money and power will benefit from that sort of economic and political ideology.


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:20 pm 
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nmoore63 wrote:
I would move to New Hampshire, except its going to get steam rolled by New England when the US decentralizes.

I'll take my chances with Cascadia.

Have all the food, power and natural resources we need.


And enough light industry to keep everything running.

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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Penner wrote:
evil muppet wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote:
Wait. Hold up. I thought you guys just wanted to all move to a single state so you can implement your market libertarian ideas. I thought that was a good idea since you all can go to a single place. But now you want to secede from the union? Are you serious? Do you think the United States will let you punch a little hole in our map? Like a libertarian Luxemburg or something?


The FSP is not a secessionist organization. The basic idea is to use the 'states as a laboratory' to showcase libertarian solutions.

I personally support secession. I advocate for secession here occasionally. I think that the federal government is becoming an authoritarian police state. I do not think that it is very likely that the course can be turned soon enough to stave this off. Efforts to reform the government will go no where. Power will continue to be centralized in Washington. The economy will continue to worsen and at some point we will run the risk of being pulled down into becoming a third world Kleptocracy or cut ourselves loose and try to start over.

Whether the United States would allow secession to happen is open to debate. I think that they might not have control over it. I suspect that secession movements would accompany other events in this country. My guess is that you'd see several states attempt to secede within a relatively short period of time. I think that the federal government will just start to disintegrate and at some point it would be too weak to prevent it.


I really think that any talk about secession from the US is just BS-ing to some fringe, small base of supporters. In reality it would most likely never happen and if it did happen the US will fight tooth and nail until the seceded area is back (a la "Second US Civil War).

Plus, the economic reality is that if any state (or region) does secedes from the US they will, no doubt, face tremendous economic hardships. Even if a region (like if the South secedes again) secedes from the US they will not be able to ship, produce, or even continue the way of life they enjoy (which is very similar to how we all live here in the US). Really, though, I live in the Northeast but I eat vegetables and fruits that are grown in the Southwest (and in other areas of the US and other parts of the world). It is very rare today, to find a remote area that can support itself without the help or aide from another region (in any form and trust me every state receives some kind of Federal money and without that money most states will not do well), which would lead to a breakdown of the secession state's government, etc...

Overall, the FSP have a cute flag (the porcupine instead of the snake was a cute idea) but I just don't agree with the idea that everybody needs to go off on their own and create their little fiefdoms out of the US. Government is effective when it benefits all the people and in the FSP's world only the ones with money and power will benefit from that sort of economic and political ideology.


Why do you assume that an area that seceded from the United States wouldn't trade with the other states? We aren't talking 1800s Japan here. You'd still be able to get oranges and apples and what not. The FSP is not trying to close down any borders.

I disagree with you that people should go off and mass in one place. This is the only way that our ideas are going to be truly effective. Can you imagine being a group of maybe 5 libertarians in San Francisco and trying to change the government there? HA!

You can already see a couple of victories in New Hampshire, especially the 12% reduction in the state budget last year. Imagine if Dan got his listeners to cluster around "Emerald International Airport" and work to change the government there?

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The principle that the majority have a right to rule the minority, practically resolves all government into a mere contest between two bodies of men, as to which of them shall be masters, and which of them slaves
-Lysander Spooner

The great non sequitur committed by defenders of the State...is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State.
-Murray Rothbard


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:26 pm 
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Quote:
Why do you assume that an area that seceded from the United States wouldn't trade with the other states? We aren't talking 1800s Japan here. You'd still be able to get oranges and apples and what not. The FSP is not trying to close down any borders.

I disagree with you that people should go off and mass in one place. This is the only way that our ideas are going to be truly effective. Can you imagine being a group of maybe 5 libertarians in San Francisco and trying to change the government there? HA!

You can already see a couple of victories in New Hampshire, especially the 12% reduction in the state budget last year. Imagine if Dan got his listeners to cluster around "Emerald International Airport" and work to change the government there?



Why because, when you officially seceded from a nation you are officially saying that you no longer want to be part of said nation. Most often the other nation would not allow any secession and war would happen. Because, trading with an area that seceded from the US would be consider illegal and that anyone who even wanted to trade would be arrested as a traitor (although, I can see some packages being deliver labeled as "humanitarian aide").

Its just we do not live in an age where we have independent regions that do not depended on other parts of the country to survive. We just do not live in that age any more. We are more connected than you think we are. Oil is refine in the Gulf states, fishing comes from all over the US cost, food is grown and shipped all over the US (and the world), the biggest port is in Southern LA (which is not part of Cascadia), the biggest textile city in the US is in MA, etc...

Plus, I never said that people should just go and mass in one place (that was you, not me, I was just talking about the FSP) and Japan in the 1800s was time period when they open their boarders with other governments.


Last edited by Penner on Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Penner wrote:
Quote:
Why do you assume that an area that seceded from the United States wouldn't trade with the other states? We aren't talking 1800s Japan here. You'd still be able to get oranges and apples and what not. The FSP is not trying to close down any borders.

I disagree with you that people should go off and mass in one place. This is the only way that our ideas are going to be truly effective. Can you imagine being a group of maybe 5 libertarians in San Francisco and trying to change the government there? HA!

You can already see a couple of victories in New Hampshire, especially the 12% reduction in the state budget last year. Imagine if Dan got his listeners to cluster around "Emerald International Airport" and work to change the government there?



Why because, when you officially seceded from a nation you are officially saying that you no longer want to be part of said nation. Most often the other nation would not allow any secession and war would happen. Because, trading with an area that seceded from the US would be consider illegal and that anyone who even wanted to trade would be arrested as a traitor (although, I can see some packages being deliver labeled as "humanitarian aide"). Its just we do not live in an age where we have independent regions that do not depended on other parts of the country to survive. We just do not live in that age any more. We are more connected than you think we are.

Plus, I never said that people should just go and mass in one place (that was you, not me, I was just talking about the FSP) and Japan in the 1800s was when they open their boarders with other governments.


Yes, you are right to the extent that you don't want to be part of said nation but that doesn't mean you don't want to trade with that nation, its to get out from under the thumb of the government there. India still trades with Britain. Pakistan still trades with India as well. The former Soviet nations still trade with Moscow. I just don't see trade being cut off from the secessionists unless the US decided to shut it down from its end.

Japan opened its borders in 1854. I meant pre-1854 when it was isolationist.

I am a signer of the Free State Project and future mover up there. My fiance and I are having our wedding in New Hampshire actually, so I am pretty familiar with it. The whole movement isn't anarchists and such. There's a lot of people like your average Dan Carlin listener who just go up there to vote on the issues and not get involved in the protests and demonstrations. My fiance is more in line with that view. I, on the other hand, want to go there and get involved in the action.

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The principle that the majority have a right to rule the minority, practically resolves all government into a mere contest between two bodies of men, as to which of them shall be masters, and which of them slaves
-Lysander Spooner

The great non sequitur committed by defenders of the State...is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State.
-Murray Rothbard


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:30 am 
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There is no reason to believe that the United States will last forever and at some point it will go away. Secession will happen eventually. The question is when. Recent polls have stated that about 20% of the population believes that states have the right to secede. Support for secession is higher among minorities, and the young. It is also more popular among the left-wing than it is with the right-wing.

The economic realities are not so clear cut.

One claim is that our standard of living will drop. Well that all depends. Look at the current economic situation we have now. We currently have a federal government that imposes a huge financial burden on the people of the United States. We are taxed heavily by the federal government, they impose a multitude of costly regulations, they distort trade. Right now a huge chunk of New Hampshire is not available for economic use because of the federal government. Just eliminating the regulatory burden and tax burden would do wonders for the economy. Granted we would no longer be getting subsidies but then since NH pays more in taxes then it receives from the Feds we'd be better off in that area. I believe that one justification for secession would be that the federal government is a barrier to individuals in states from achieving an even higher standard of living.

Then there is the question of trade. Secession doesn't always entail cutting off of trade from the rest of the world. We might not be able to buy oranges from California but that doesn't mean we couldn't get oranges from Mexico. The flow of trade would just shift. For those in the Northeast it might make more economic sense to trade with Canada and Europe more than it does with California and Texas. There is also no guarantee that other states would not continue to trade with the seceding states.

I also don't think that war would inevitably result. There has been several peaceful cases of secession within recent years. There has also been several referendums on secession in several countries.

The federal government might want to fight secession tooth and nail but they might not be in the condition to do so. You have to imagine the conditions that would have to be present in the United States for there to be a secession movement strong enough to actually gain independence. My guess is that the federal government would be having a severe fiscal crisis, this would result in the federal government being weak, ineffective and unpopular. It would not be a repeat of the Civil War. Different country, different causes. Things would play out entirely different.

You'd also have to wonder about the character of the government if they are willing to impose an embargo and wage war upon a state for something like this. The first argument that is made on the question of secession is that the government will wage war upon you if you dare to secede. it is a simple argument based on fear and intimidation.


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:35 am 
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al Jazeera does an article on the Free State Project.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featur ... 31615.html


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:39 pm 
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Look, I do not agree with the Libertarian movement at all. We all live in a society and we all need law and government in order to have a society. I do not believe that having unregulated companies, doing anything they want will benefit me, my love ones, the economy, or just society in general.

As with the issue of secession, I have look at the American Civil War and point out that the South was worse off than the North during that period, in terms of their economy (and other aspects of their society). They were tied to the North and the North was tied to the South, but the South wasn't able to support themselves when the seceded. What I would predict, if any region does secedes, is something similar.


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:19 am 
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The South was worse off during the Civil War because they were at war. The Southern economy was not tied strongly with the Northern economy. The South traded more with Europe than they did with the Northern states. The reason the Southern economy did poorly after secession was because their trade was being blockaded. This was called Operation Anaconda. Large amounts of manpower, treasure, food, clothing, horses, etc. had to be diverted to the army to fight a war. Some of the war measures further hampered their economy. The confederate government began managing the economy towards the end. Inflating the currency and all manner of bad things. Of course having large numbers of Union troops systematically destroying large swaths of land didn't help either. It was the war that ruined the southern economy, not secession. So the only lesson that we can get from the Civil War is that the federal government has no compunction of destroying and ruining any state that doesn't want to be under its control.

Of course if you look at other countries that have seceded there are many of them that have done better following secession. Many of the countries who have become independent have done better economically. Secession didn't ruin them and secession wouldn't ruin any seceding state unless the federal government makes the decision to wage war upon them.

In terms of law and order. Almost all law and order is provided by the state governments. It is the state and local governments that provide the vast majority of law enforcement. It is the state government that runs the schools, builds the roads. Almost all courts are on the state level.


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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:18 pm 
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wise_owl wrote:
Early in this thread some-one points out one of the key flaws in 'libertarian' philosophy; that being the arbitrary nature fo the cut-off date for the legitimacy of ownership. i.e. Libertarians claim that the use of force to gain property is never legitimate, but have the historical problem that, especially in North America, nearly all property was gained through the use of force. Thus they self-servingly institute some claim like 'Well there should be a break-off limit', the problem being precisely that any such limit is inherently self-serving. So the Chinese occupation of Tibet is now 'legitimate' because they held on for 50 years? Of course not, that makes no sense. Plus, despite attempts to the contrary, this isn't some abstraction, there are plenty of Native American groups seeking actual restitution for the loss of their property. We can track the particulars of who 'should' own that property in these cases in ways the counter-examples really can't be.

Sure, lets agree that the use of Force to gain property is illegitimate... lets just agree after I take all your stuff... THAN we can both agree on how illegitimate it is. The transparent self-serving nature of these assertions are pretty clear.

That's a good point, since the majority of American was taken by force

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 Post subject: Re: Free State Project --- Winning!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:20 pm 
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