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 Post subject: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in WW2
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:43 pm 
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I got into a discussion with my Dad about the importance of the USSR in the defeat of Germany, after all the if the Russians could have they would have tried to drown the Nazis in Communist blood if it would stop them, but he has this opinion that the USSR would have been crushed if we never helped them with billion in war aid money, I think this is ludicrous, but it may have some small truth to it, opinions?


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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Nomarch
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Without American support, the UK and Commonwealth are strictly on the defensive in the West. Ergo, it's unlikely you'd see operations in France, Italy, North Africa and Scandinavia during the later stages of the war, freeing up manpower for the Germans to send East.

Plus, wasn't the USSR nearing collapse at the end of the war? A few extra years and ten million extra deaths would likely stress their hold even more.


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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:01 pm 
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But how effective would the Russian war machine have been without aid from foreign powers?


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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:19 pm 
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The Lend-Lease program probably kept both the UK and the USSR from collapsing, not necessarily accountable for the huge military gain the USSR made, but probably did just what it was suspposed to do. It ensured that the USSR would be in the war fighting Hitler. The US feared that the Soviets would collapse from lack of supplies or sign a seperate peace with Berlin, leaving Hitler to throw the bulk of his armies into the west.

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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:23 pm 
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Here's a list of materials, I cannot vouche for it's integrity

Aircraft.............................14,795
Tanks.................................7,056
Jeeps................................51,503
Trucks..............................375,883
Motorcycles..........................35,170
Tractors..............................8,071
Guns..................................8,218
Machine guns........................131,633
Explosives..........................345,735 tons
Building equipment valued.......$10,910,000
Railroad freight cars................11,155
Locomotives...........................1,981
Cargo ships..............................90
Submarine hunters.......................105
Torpedo boats...........................197
Ship engines..........................7,784
Food supplies.....................4,478,000 tons
Machines and equipment.......$1,078,965,000
Noniron metals......................802,000 tons
Petroleum products................2,670,000 tons
Chemicals...........................842,000 tons
Cotton..........................106,893,000 tons
Leather..............................49,860 tons
Tires.............................3,786,000
Army boots.......................15,417,000 pairs

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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:39 pm 
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Here's a book review on the subject. The Book claims that the Soviets wouldn't have survived due to the bulk of the food producing regions of the Soviet Union being under German Control. And in now way could have harvested crops on that ground until the fall of 1944.

Spam won the Eastern Front!

http://www.historynet.com/russias-life-saver-lend-lease-aid-to-the-ussr-in-world-war-ii-book-review.htm

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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:40 am 
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Nomarch
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Oh please not Spam - I think I'd have just surrendered... ;)

There's probably two factors to this - the figures above that Carlus mentions, and the land that had already been lost, which, assuming that things had continued as they were doing, would have been everything up to the Urals. Most Russian farmland and industry was/ would have been inside this area, so after a certain amount of attrition the Soviets would have been in a lot of trouble. You could argue that numbers are also important, and that the Russians had the men to soak up more casualties than the Germans, but that didn't work out too well for them in the First World War.

So, it's less would the USSR have still been able to win, and more about if the Germans could have kept up the kind of efforts of 1941. They did a lot of burning and despoiling in the summer and autumn and it came back to bite them in the rear in the winter. If they could have kept going and started to put some infrastructure back together... then Zhukov could be the biggest tactical genius in history, but a pitchfork is still not much use against a machine gun a hundred metres away...

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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Hetairoi
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Spam was shipped to Russia in great quantities during the war, and many years later Nikita Kruschev publicly remarked that Russia would have lost the war if it had not been for Spam from America.

So, Dan's 8 hours on the Eastern front could have been summed up in one word..............SPAM :lol: :lol:

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Last edited by Carlus Magnus on Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:41 pm 
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As nice as it is to believe that we alone saved the world, I don't think its true. Undoubtedly, lend lease was helpful. The reality is that front-line soviet soldiers were living off of 100g of bread not spam


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 Post subject: Re: How important was the US economic support of the USSR in
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:52 am 
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kabuki wrote:
As nice as it is to believe that we alone saved the world, I don't think its true. Undoubtedly, lend lease was helpful. The reality is that front-line soviet soldiers were living off of 100g of bread not spam


I don't think WWII could have been won without any of the 3 major allies. Take away the USSR and the US and UK have literally no chance of even launching a Normandy. Take away the UK and there is no base of operation in the West for the US and then all forces are focused on the USSR, Africa is gone, as well as the Middle East. The Med is a big Nazi swimming pool. Take out the US's economic power and ability to get troops and supplies to both the UK and USSR fronts and both the UK and USSR have to sign over most of Europe to Germany.

The front line Cucumbers might have lived off 100g(70 calories) of bread a day, which I doubt was the norm day in and out for 5 years, but even if true, the Soviets also had to feed all the support personnel.

I doubt your number, that's one slice of bread a day. (do you have a source ?)
It's just not possible to do much hard work on one slice of bread and only 70 calories a day.

My source of Kruschev saying Spam kept their Army going(won the war)
http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/All-About-SPAM-140317.html
A can of spam has over 1000 calories and necessary fats, carbs, and proteins for hard work.

Now the Soviet military leaders didn't give a damn for their Soldiers, so it may be possible many of them were given a slice of bread because they were going to be dead anyway.

Here's a site for WWII re-enactors where you can buy Spam in a Soviet WWII era lable.
http://reprorations.com/Russia%20WW%202.htm

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