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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:38 pm 
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Waleis wrote:
freewomban420 wrote:
That's a military instrument of death.

No, it's a civilian instrument of death. Power is, when distilled to its basest form, the ability to create or end life. The People only have true power over their government, when they are capable of directly exercising power over their government.
So you are claiming people only have power over their government when they have the ability to murder government officals? Look at Iraq, Afghanistan, and Somalia. Lots of armed attacks on government their. Are these countries truly free? Look at Norway, Sweden and Japan. Stable, peaceful, democratic countries. Strict gun control. Almost no anti-government violence or treat of violence. I would say that these countries might be free than the United State.
The 2nd Amendment guarantees all the others, when coupled with diligence.

The 2nd Amendment is obsolete. Military technology has advanced to far. You think that once you purchase a semi automatic .50 caliber, that you'll be able to fight off SWAT teams and National Guard? :lol:
Your big guns don't give you any power over government .
Government isn't scared of you or your .50
Government could care less about you.
The government knows you will never act.
Never.
You wouldn't. Peroid.
Increase in government power comes in a small trickle, not great brusts, at least in America.

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:22 pm 
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freewomban420 wrote:
The 2nd Amendment is obsolete. Military technology has advanced to far. You think that once you purchase a semi automatic .50 caliber, that you'll be able to fight off SWAT teams and National Guard? :lol:
Your big guns don't give you any power over government .
Government isn't scared of you or your .50
Government could care less about you.
The government knows you will never act.
Never.
You wouldn't. Peroid.
Increase in government power comes in a small trickle, not great brusts, at least in America.


jeez lady, read some freakin mao, stat!!!! technofetishism is bullshit, no number of helicopter gunships can fight off the will of the people and prevail, that's why us imperialism was defeated in vietnam. all we need is a rifle and correct ideology! christ

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:48 pm 
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DrYouth wrote:
Skengman!

You are an awesome set of contradictions.

You have upped the IQ of the forum, despite your toxic arrogance, which fortunately comes just short of cancelling out your worthwhile contributions to the forum.

Damn... I hate to say this... but it's good to have you back.

The Syria issue is FAR from clear cut.

And for the record
There is NO way skengman is anyone's sockpuppet. You just can't make this shit up. So let's put that to rest.

You scare me... and there is plenty I don't agree with you about... but stick around.


actually, dryouth is my sock puppet

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:34 am 
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Smitty-48 wrote:
No. I called your bluff and now you are moving the goalposts. Or else, what? Russia can supply China the energy, along with other countries as well, under adverse conditions. Then what?

No superpower surrenders its sovereign freedom of action and if you do something like that they will dig in. Then you have to up the ante, so then what else?

Doesn't matter how you gussy it up, ultimatums is ultimatums. There's no way the Chinese government would cave in, in front of its nationalistic base, to some sort of American blackmail. That's why they have nukes and that's why they are on the security councils Permanent Five. They are very touchy about being taken seriously and they are fiercely protective of their independence. Not to mention that they have a lot of client states that supply them, that wont go along with that, in the general assembly. So what then?

You think Australia is going to agree to stop selling China coal... for Syrians? How is that in Australia's national interest?


i get that the approach of making demands is the same whether its backed up by military threats or economic ones. i wasn't stating one was different from the other. my comment was that there are other options than direct military action.

there is the, "lets sit down and talk about this" approach

and the, "straighten up or else..." approach.

the or else line can be something other than war. sure its just as much of an attempt to strong arm as war, but not exactly the same.

resorting to military action is definitely an infringement of sovereignty. taking economic or diplomatic actions is not so much so. a nation can claim that being attacked is a crime, but not being supplied by nations that have no obligation to supply resources is not so much of an infringement of sovereignty. saying that we wont do business with you because we don't agree with your policies is not tantamount to war.

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:38 am 
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I'm a superpower. I gets my energy, or I make trouble for you. Simple as that. Not getting what you want with ultimatums.

Now, maybe I'm worried about my image, or keeping my options open if Assad falls, but don't fuck around.

I'll decide what is an attack against me, and economic warfare has a double edged sword. Cuts both ways, mutherfucker, so you'll regret poking me in the eye, bet that.

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Last edited by Smitty-48 on Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:38 am 
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skengman wrote:
the syrian government is fighting an armed insurgency by sectarian religious militants,


hmmm. hows that work?

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:47 am 
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Smitty-48 wrote:
I'm a superpower. I gets my energy, or I make trouble for you. Simple as that. Not getting what you want with ultimatums.

Now, maybe I'm worried about my image, or keeping my options open if Assad falls, but don't fuck around.

I'll decide what is an attack against me, and economic warfare has a double edged sword. Cuts both ways, mutherfucker, so you'll regret poking me in the eye, bet that.


got it. but didn't you get what i meant? sun tzu said the worst strategy is siege because of the resources required. after that comes invasion because of the resources required to supply an army away from home. the best way to defeat an enemy is by removing his ability to fight through diplomacy, alliances, and economics. yes it is all the aimed at making a neighbor do what you want, which is where we are in syria. but there are better ways to do it than direct military action. are you with me on this?

the scenario was a hypothetical way to address a situation without firing shots. sure it isn't always applicable or maybe even ever, but it was an example to try to illustrate what i was getting at. there are always other cards on the table than sending in the marines. additionally there is the question of whether or not it is for us to do anything at all, but that can be assumed when talking about hypotheticals over what to do, not whether or not to do.

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:51 am 
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Okeefenokee wrote:

got it. but didn't you get what i meant? sun tzu said the worst strategy is siege because of the resources required. after that comes invasion because of the resources required to supply an army away from home. the best way to defeat an enemy is by removing his ability to fight through diplomacy, alliances, and economics. yes it is all the aimed at making a neighbor do what you want, which is where we are in syria. but there are better ways to do it than direct military action. are you with me on this?

the scenario was a hypothetical way to address a situation without firing shots. sure it isn't always applicable or maybe even ever, but it was an example to try to illustrate what i was getting at. there are always other cards on the table than sending in the marines. additionally there is the question of whether or not it is for us to do anything at all, but that can be assumed when talking about hypotheticals over what to do, not whether or not to do.



Sun Tsu, Sun Schmu. You are borrowing money off of us, to fund your largesse, and your little friends in Europe will freeze in the dark without our gas. We can turn the spigot on, and we can turn the spigot off, as well.

Don't fuck with us, you puffed up hillbilly. We are "Sun Tzu", you are "Howdy Doody"

You wanna take it to the general assembly there, "democracy boy"? You ain't that popular, being Israel's little bum buddy n' all. Lets take it to the house and see what the peeps say. I bet they tell you that you are overstepping your bounds and causing instability.

You don't have an UNSC resolution against us and we have a veto, just like you do. You don't have any international mandate to embargo us. You are the lawless aggressor, not us.

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:18 pm 
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so tonight isn't a good night to have a talk my old friend eh?

this opinion you have of the war mongering american's isn't me, you know that right?

i saw the knee jerk reaction to send in the troops once again and thought i'd mention the lack of alternative approaches these days. thought we could have a discussion about the days when leaders knew there was more than one way to skin a cat. just a discussion about strategy. i know you always remind everyone of the importance of strategy to carry tactics. guess tonight isn't the night.

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:24 pm 
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How dare you speak this way to another Boss? You forget yourself. Threatening us? You've lost your mind. With your record of abuse, lawlessness and atrocity? Turn the spotlight on your own crimes.

Hear this Yankee Stooge; We will not kneel to you as Hegemon. Not now. Not ever. Death first.

You threaten us with embargo? Jingoistic mischief making.

Don't make us take this to the street.

Your people are weak, soft and divided. We are prepared to sacrifice 100 million in an afternoon. Shake that off and keep marching. Your military strategy is a farcical joke. We have already stolen the lion share of your 'revolutionary' technology. You are an open book to us. You are not ready for war with us, economic, or otherwise, and we've done nothing to deserve this abuse, or these incendiary threats.

You blubber over the death of Whitney Houston? Choose which of your children you are prepared to sacrifice to the fire. "Sophie's Choice" there, democracy boy. Who you think you talking to? Fuckin' Denmark? You better check yoself before you wreck yoself, round eye.

We ain't negotiating shit, until you apologize and withdraw your threats of economic warfare.

Yours sincerely,

The Peoples Republic of China and Friends

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:43 pm 
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This is good...

Smitty is making a strong case for the worthlessness of economic sanctions....

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Quote:
Clinton suggests Syrian rebels will get arms
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton suggested on Thursday Syria's opposition will ultimately arm itself and said she would bet against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's staying in power.

Speaking directly to Russia and China, which have blocked U.N. Security Council resolutions designed to end the violence in Syria, Clinton said the government's "brutality" against its own people was unsustainable in the internet age.

"The strategy followed by the Syrians and their allies is one that can't stand the test of legitimacy or even brutality for any length of time," Clinton told reporters in London.

"There will be increasingly capable opposition forces. They will from somewhere, somehow, find the means to defend themselves as well as begin offensive measures," she added.

"It is clear to me there will be a breaking point. I wish it would be sooner, so that more lives would be saved, than later, but I have absolutely no doubt there will be such a breaking point."

Speaking ahead of a gathering of Western and Arab powers on Friday, U.S. officials separately said the group planned to challenge Assad to provide humanitarian access within days to civilians under assault by his forces.

The officials, speaking before a "Friends of Syria" meeting expected to gather more than 70 nations and international groups in Tunis, did not say what specific consequences would follow if Syrian authorities failed to provide access.

The Syrian military pounded rebel-held Sunni Muslim districts of Homs city for the 20th day on Thursday, despite international protest over the previous day's death toll of more than 80, including two Western journalists, activists said.

"One of the things you are going to see coming out of the meeting tomorrow are concrete proposals on how we, the international community, plan to support humanitarian organizations ... within days, meaning that the challenge is on the Syrian regime to respond to this," said a U.S. official. . .

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/23/us-syria-conference-challenge-idUSTRE81M23R20120223


Who called it?

That's right.
:altwink:

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Daps for that if you want them, but that really isn't out of the ordinary for the US, or international arms merchants... IIRC, I said it wasn't a good idea, not that it wouldn't happen... but wait, it gets better...

Quote:
Syria's sectarian war goes international as foreign fighters and arms pour into country

After years of Syrian insurgents and weaponry infiltrating Iraq, now the traffic goes the other way



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 16665.html

Also, once you start arming one side of an internal conflict, international law goes right out the window. Can't chirp at Russia and China about international law, or "responsibility to protect" once you have picked a side.

Without UNSC authorization, it is illegal and a violation of the charter. The Russians and Chinese are arming the recognized government of a member state, which AFAIK, is not under a UN arms embargo, which is technically legitimate.

"R2P" means you have to get a UNSC resolution and use uniformed, UNSC authorized forces.

So this is back to Cold War style unilateral action through proxy.

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Last edited by Smitty-48 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Smitty-48 wrote:
Can't chirp at Russia and China about international law, or "responsibility to protect" once you have picked a side.



But we will.

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 Post subject: Re: no one talking about syria?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:44 pm 
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doc_loliday wrote:
Smitty-48 wrote:
Can't chirp at Russia and China about international law, or "responsibility to protect" once you have picked a side.



But we will.


Yeah, for "domestic consumption", but they are impervious to that sort of chirping. They basically have to flip on Assad themselves, based on their own interests, which really aren't kowtowing to our version of "morality".

There are way more reasons for them not to flip on him, or not to flip on him without major concessions, than there are to respond to western hypocrisy.

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